Front Footwells Wet (c/locking Rear Wash) 04 Mk 2

[allegedly]

Hi guys,

There's a lot of posts on here that touch on this subject and if you've not had it, I get the impression it's only a matter of time!

Both front wells on my wifes Ghia are like foot spa's. Worrying because it's not just a case of having smelly carpets but under the front passenger seat is the electronic box that controls things like the central locking and other electronic gizmos. These are safety/security devices that in most other walks of life would have the supplier crucified for very poor design/layout not to mention giving insurers apoplexy.

I am not a mechanic, just like to try and sort of things myself and save a few quid at the same time but the vague uncertainty of this problem is the most frustrating thing I've dealt with. Though I'm sure there's worse!!

By reviewing what I've covered, with the help of all on here, it may help some other DIYer grasping at straws!

First point....READ THE FAQs, they're invaluable. Second, there's some excellent posts on here that cover most if not all eventualities. Great site.

Looking at the dates of the posts and the age of the vehicles, Ford have been happy to let this atrocious collection of faults carry through the generations.

I've been posting bits of this problem else where on here but may have resolved it so thought I'd get it in one place.

[allegedly]

Possible causes....Leaking/disconnected sunroof drain pipes. Mine does not have sunroof so headlining dry.

Roof bars/rails. Got them fitted but again, head lining appears dry and unmarked.

No aerial fitted to roof so see above.

Blocked 'scuttle drains'. At least on this slightly later model, the big holes from the sides of the scuttle into the wings above the wheel arches are clear, as is the length of 'shelving' running the length of the fire wall/bulkhead from wing to wing so water seems to run out either side of the wheels now.

I also removed the plastic wheel arch liners (my words) with the required torx socket and cleaned out any mud or crap in there, down to the sills.

Leaking rubber grommets or other penetrators for cabling or pipes through the fire wall/bulkhead. I've checked everything I can see or reach and non seem to be leaking.

Seams where two or more panels come together either side and back of engine bay. Spraying water for extended periods in all areas of the engine bay and wheel arches that seemed pertinent didn't appear to add to small pool in footwell.

I changed out the pollen filter. Old one did not appear in bad condition, frame seemed good to as did the actual body it all sits in.

There is no obvious corrosion that would explain this level of water ingress. I've fecking looked at just about every inch of it!

By now getting concerned and frustrated.

The only good news was that the water seemed to come in when it rained and didn't seemed linked to the heater matrix. Odd thing was, it seemed to come in at the passenger side then 'slosh' across the back of the dash (SWMBO words, not mine), she hears it and sees it steadily drip down from above the accelerator pedal area into the drivers side well. Hate to say I didn't quite believe her. Hence first pics.

Step trim off, carpets peeled back, underlay stanley knifed along lower edge of transmission tunnel. Check rear wash pipe join. Hah, JOIN. Temporary meeting point, perhaps.

[allegedly]

So, rear wash pipe not connected. That'll do it, I thought. But no. she was right, it comes down the back of the footwell but doesn't wet the carpet at that point. Just the lower area. Next job was to remove the plastic scuttle tray like fitting.

Opened the bonnet and using the right size socket, removed the nuts holding the wipers on. I found that it's a fiddly job to slacken the wipers off. They're splined (vertical grooves) so I tried not to be too rough but they came off eventually and by trial and error, that is bonnet open or bonnet closed, got them off the rotating pegs. I tried not to be too heavy handed doing this as I got the impression they'd damage the splined drives.

On this model, there's a plastic trimming piece that fits at the base of the windscreen and over the wiper blade bases. I took care here as there's a small circular insert around the hole for the wipers and a soft, possibly felt. washer fitting below the hole, around the splined peg.

The screen wash needs to be disconnected and so does the plug. I just pulled the water pipe join apart and used a small contact screw driver to ease the electrical plug apart, taking care not to break it, as it appears quite fragile and, to me, not obvious how it comes apart.

It's not obvious to the uninitiated (i.e. me ) how this fits into the edges and rubber seals around the windscreen so perhaps I should have look closer before I removed it.

That is,if it was put in properly in the first place as I suspect the screen is a replacement.

A clue to my last statement is the fact that there was a piece of long thin plastic trim loose under it that appears to be designed to fit to the bottom of the screen and the plastic trim that covers the wiper pegs should have fitted into it's second groove. Or so I worked out.

Once I'd removed the two small end pieces of foam and the rubber strip that fits over the edge of the scuttle and the metal lip, I undid the 3, (if I remember correctly) 10mm captive screws, one at either end and one in the middle, sort of under the front. Then the tray can be eased out.

I found it took a bit of force and slight bending but it came out okay.

Now I can see the metal tray below the screen, at the back. Also the pollen filter.

Time to check for blockages, leaves, muck etc. I found a few leaves and the rest I washed out with a hose using a good nozzel to be as accurate as possible.

At the extreme left and right hand side, at the back, I was just able to see, around the hinges of the bonnet, the large drain holes in the panel leading to the wings and they appeared clean.

I then removed the wheel arch covers using the Torx and made doubly sure everything that should be clean, was. Again, I sprayed everything in sight. I also kept checking the inside footwell while I was spraying.

[allegedly]

Didn't realise how late it is so, moderators willing, I'll finish this tomorrow. Also realised I hadn't said thanks to crispb23456 in particular and all contributors in general. If I don't cover everything or do so incorrectly, please feel free to contribute any and all info/guidance or corrections.....lets get it all in one spot, eh? Night

Rob

Edited November 26, 2011 by allegedly

[allegedly]

SWMBO birthday Sat' so didn't go near the car!

The plastic coated felt(?) underlay didn't appear too far gone and I was able to leave it in a workshop area at work to dry out. It's taken about ten days just left on its own to dry in normal atmosphere but appears ok. I'll eventually refit it and tape the two edges together somehow, when I know for sure it's the windscreen.

Test driving the car proved that when I turned left at the start of any journey after the car had stood for a while or overnight, in light or heavy rain, produced a small water fall of clean water down the inside of the curve of the wheel arch in the foot well and to the right, it dripped onto my feet, just as she said.

Working on/in it in the rain meant I was able to sit in the cab and watch it run down and start to fill the foot well.

In fact, I stopped working on it on Friday night and went back to put all the bits together today, Sunday, after a weekend of rain. Using a plastic water bottle with the neck cut off, I had to empty about two litres of clean rain water from the passenger side

I removed the 'flip down' back of the glove box to see/access the back but all I could see is the fan motor and it appeared dry, no obvious corrosion.

By laying in the footwell, upside down, I was just able to get my hand up between the back of the fan and the bulkhead.

The shaped felt insulation was a little damp but the drips came from higher up. I was not sure what was up there and to add to my confusion, the drips sometimes also came down the side, below the A pillar!!

To rule that out, I removed the small vent trim below the front 'quarter light' window, plus the plastic trim off the side end of the dash.

The felt and fittings behind here showed some water marks but were not wet enough to be the source.

I could just feel the inside of what I believe to be the back slated area of the pollen filter and again, confusingly, this was dry too. But it was up here somewhere the bloody water was coming in from. I'd felt around all the bulkhead/firewall penetrators and grommets but they were dry........?

Pics are of the Pollen filter, the stripped out footwell with the curved area the water runs down and, my thanks here to Vanbusta for a great pic of a stripped out dash showing the back of the filter area. Now you can see why I was glad to (so far!) rule out the heater matrix!

Edited November 28, 2011 by allegedly

[allegedly]

One of the first tests I'd tried was to spray the windscreen area but this was before I'd properly removed the floor coverings. I decided to try this again, but this time starting low down and working up the sides and across the top, area by area.

I sprayed the scuttle area and carefully around the pollen filter. The water just ran down into the wheel arches and away as it should. Next across the base of the screen.

Then the lower quarter of the screen and door close line.

Each time, I waited a while and checked the footwell. Nothing showed until I was near the top edge and moving across towards the middle from the upper corner. At that point, small rivulets of water ran down the curve, into the foot well. The runs were made worse by rocking the car, but this only proved it was also sitting somewhere, building up and overflowing.

I still can't work out where it's been sitting, even looking closely at Vanbustas excellent picture but so far, this is the only indication of a definitely/probable ingress point!

So, as several posts suggest, it may pay to just get the screen reseated/replaced, even if only to rule it out.

That's my course of action first thing tomorrow. I live in the middle of nowhere in NW Scotland so it'll be a call out as and when they arrive.

But with all the signs now pointing to this, I'm hoping it's that simple.

I know this is a bit long winded and thanks for bearing with me but I'm not a mechanic as I said and I've tried to relate it in a way that I'd understand, even if it just helps others to discount some possible causes. Not to forget, the possible electronic knock on effects.

I'll let you know the good or bad news!

Cheers and good luck

Rob

 

Incidentally, there's a great link on here somewhere showing how to strip out the headlining, step by step with pics. Excellent post if you've got leaking sun roofs, disconnected/broken drain pipes and all the bloody symptoms that go with this problem.

Edited November 28, 2011 by allegedly

[nicebutdim]

You are showing the exact same symptoms that I had with mine, took me 2 weeks to find my leak. You mentioned the plastic surrounds that clip under the windscreen wiper spindles, did you actually check the clips that go into the body? There is 2 (or 3) clips that sit in the body that the surround then clips onto. Those clips DO NOT seal properly, and that hole leads straight into the cabin. I pumped a load of sealant into the hole, filling the cavity and making sure it was really in there, right in the corners until it squeezed out through the holes. I then sat the clip into the sealant in it's hole and allowed to dry.

I wish I had taken pictures when doing mine, it'd make it so much more easier to describe, but I was so bloody excited to have found the leak that I just got on with it.

If you haven't tried this I'll bet that this is where it is coming in. I read about it before but discounted it as I really didn't think the manufacturers would have been so stupid with the placement of the clips, they were!

Almost all water running down the windscreen and from the roof gets directed over these clips, so even a light shower ends up with pints being directed straight in through those holes.

You'll need to remove the wipers (mark their position on the shaft first) then prise the surround from the clips. You'll see the clips underneath. Pull out the clips and you'll see the cavity under them. This cavity leads into the cabin through some insulation (I took out the whole dash before finding this out). Get some sealant and fill that cavity, and I mean fill it (make sure it is all dry first). Push the clips into the holes with plenty of sealant around their base and allow it to set. Give it a test.

I hope this sorts out the leak, as you are describing exactly the same as what I had.

[allegedly]

Hi nicebutdim!

Thanks for the reply and info mate. I've read about the pins on here but the piece of vented plastic on mine doesn't seem to have or take them.

I'm happy to stand corrected but there's a curved plastic strip with two 'slots' in it, the larger slot fits onto the lower, leading edge of the windscreen.

The other, top groove receives an extended strip moulded to the underside of the vented trim.

Fiddly to fit without pulling the strip off the bottom of the screen as you can't see it, especially when refitting the rubber seal between the scuttle and the vented trim, as you have to pull it about a bit.

If it should have this and other clips I'll get on it asap but the only holes are the ones visible in the pic and they all have corresponding holes below them so, in theory, it should drain. In theory.

 

I've reposted the pic of the scuttle, laying across the top to the engine and I've put in three arrows (I'm crap at using 'Paint'!) showing where the long curved strip pushed onto the lower edge of the windscreen.

Edited November 28, 2011 by allegedly

[nicebutdim]

Hi nicebutdim!

Thanks for the reply and info mate. I've read about the pins on here but the piece of vented plastic on mine doesn't seem to have or take them.

I'm happy to stand corrected but there's a curved plastic strip with two 'slots' in it, the larger slot fits onto the lower, leading edge of the windscreen.

The other, top groove receives an extended strip moulded to the underside of the vented trim.

Fiddly to fit without pulling the strip off the bottom of the screen as you can't see it, especially when refitting the rubber seal between the scuttle and the vented trim, as you have to pull it about a bit.

If it should have this and other clips I'll get on it asap but the only holes are the ones visible in the pic and they all have corresponding holes below them so, in theory, it should drain. In theory.

 

I've reposted the pic of the scuttle, laying across the top to the engine and I've put in three arrows (I'm crap at using 'Paint'!) showing where the long curved strip pushed onto the lower edge of the windscreen.

 

I see what you mean. I'll have a look at a mk2 near here and get back to you with what I see. I really do feel for you, I know how difficult and frustrating it is when it seems impossible to stop the water coming in. On mine the water had got into the wiring loom on the passenger side and rotted the solder joints, causing the central locking to pack up. I was well happy when I found it, as the car had been with Ford for nearly a week while their technicians tried to find why the central locking wasn't working. Even they gave up, but they didn't find the gallons of water soaked into the sound mat under the carpet either. I only found this after the gear selector cable had broke (which turned out to be a blessing in disguise) as the front carpet had to be removed to replace them.

[chrispb123456]

Hi Allegedly

 

Just a thought when I had my screen changed they removed the trim dowm the side of the screen on the inside which im sure enables you to see the side and more importantly the lower corners of the screens bonded area.

[allegedly]

Hi chris. Yes, I thought so. If I can, I'm going to stay and watch, not because I don't trust them but I'd like to see a bit more. Especially behind the trim on the pillars. And to see how it comes off without me resorting to Land Rover owner tactics.....bigger pry bar plus length of scaffold pole!! I may indulge my passion for information spreading and take my camera.

Must admit, feeling slightly happier for first time in a while about this bloody car. Amazing how it's become an obsession...I WILL sort this! Mind you, she'll kill me if I don't.

Agree Nicebutdim, it is.

I've got a bit of knowledge from working on every car I've owned (and as stated before, my first was a Ford Anglia!) but how the heck do people with no knowledge or aptitude cope? That's why these sites and the contributions from the more experienced members are so important. As I said before, thanks guys.