Reluctant Starter On Mk1 Tdi.

[Scorpiorefugee]

My well used S reg TDI usually cranks for up to 10 seconds before firing on cold mornings. This is my first winter with it so I have no previous experience. I did wonder if there is an oil pressure sensor and thick oil was causing the problem. It's fine once the outside temperature is above 10-15 degrees and once the engine is warm.

It is approaching 160K.

 

Any thoughts anyone?

 

Ron.

[seatkid]

Change the glowplugs - see here and here for further info.

[Scorpiorefugee]

Sounds right.

 

In fact, If I had half a brain I should have thought of that myself. The extra info is great but I might wait for it to stop raining before I get my old AVO out.

 

In your words..."I may be some time...."

 

 

Thanks mate.

 

 

Ron.

[Scorpiorefugee]

Well now! This has just got worse!

 

Went out this morning and it started after the usual 8 seconds and left it ticking over for a minute or so, which is something I do not normally do. swithed off and now it refuses to start.

 

I've checked glow plugs - all less than 1 ohm but there does not seem to be any power to them - even at switch on for a moment.

 

I've checked the haynes manual ( I've no handbook) and the fuse (74) seems to be hidden from my view.

 

The glow plug light comes on.

 

Can anyone help please?

 

Ron.

[seatkid]

F74 (60A) is located in the central junction box which is under the drivers side dash above the normal fuses......check out K70 which is the glow plug relay. Also check F32 (3A) which is the supply to the relay coil.....

[Scorpiorefugee]

Heavens man! Do you never rest? :lol:

 

Thanks a bunch. I've already checked the other bits but the F74 and associated relay have completely defeated my inability to stand on my head and gaze upwards into the gloom.

 

Nevertheless, I am reassured that it really does exist and, suitably wrapped, I am off to rip off bits of plastic untilI can get closer.

 

If all fails I shall rig a manual connection to fire up the glow plugs for a couple of seconds. ....

 

 

Again, I may be some time.... :lol:

 

 

I like that. I may borrow it again.

 

Thanks again.

 

Ron.

[seatkid]

BTW the Central Junction Box is a multilevel affair...... you have to remove screws and unhinge the top level to get to the relays.....the CJB is the bit above the bottom rows of fuses with the connectors coming out of it.

[Scorpiorefugee]

I'm impressed. and not just a little!

 

Sad news is that so far not very encouraging.

 

There's definitely nowt going to the glow plug cct. I've checked each one in situ at 3.1 to 3.3 ohms each - too consistant to be wrong - I think. I've tried the direct link. Lots of current - too much for my meter, and still no joy. Never mind! your help has inspired me - for the moment.

 

It may well be that I've inherited the one that has had a few problems before..

 

Just a few little signs, know what I mean, a screw missing here....etc.

 

Ron.

[seatkid]

Is your meter right? 3 ohms is too high, glow plugs should be less than one ohm but then again meters are rarely very good at low ohmic measurements....

 

But I agree, you should get 12v at the glow plugs at least for 2-3 seconds on start. Must be a fuse or relay problem....good luck

[Scorpiorefugee]

Thanks again.

 

I'll check the meter - I have another and some known resistors, but it does read 0 on short cct.

 

I now have a plan...

 

Order some new glow plugs from a lead you put on another posting.

 

Have a stiff drink ( Yorkshire tea) and go look for that damned fuse again.

 

Ron.

[Scorpiorefugee]

Absolutely right. Checked the plugs with the meter out of my electronics kit and I now have readings of about half an ohm. The other meter, a new heavy duty electricians meter, is obviously a bit iffy.

 

Now here's a funny thing.

 

I got the missus to come out and crank it while I manually fired up the glow plugs - in short bursts - didn't want to damage them! Nothing for a while then a few bubbles in the fuel line and .. broom burp burp broom burp broom broom.

 

Now here's another funny thing.

 

When I parked up, nose down on our 1 in 4 drive, the fuel gauge showed 1/4 tank but I know that the slope always causes the gauge to read much lower once it has settled. It's obvious now that my problem today was lack of fuel but it is not normally a problem as I usually start and roll off the drive immediately - today I didn't, but I did roll it off the drive to allow access and the fuel gauge went up to 1/4 again. Nevertheless, I now know that the difficult starting is caused by a total lack of current to the glow plugs and that the glow plugs are probably O/K.

 

I've now added anther 20L and have over 1/2 tank!

 

I am now a chastened soul with grubby fingernails.

 

SK is a star and obviously a good bit smarter than the average bear, whose efforts on a day of rest are not wasted 'cos I now know what may starting problem is. I also know that it is not a good idea to run the tank dry, 'cos by my calculation, it took at least 5 mins of stedy cranking to re-prime the system.

 

Thanks again SK,

 

Ron.

 

PS. This is the second time I've typed this in as SK (My hero!)sent me a personal mail which flashed up and somehow caused it all to dissappear.

[Scorpiorefugee]

And finally!

 

It is now apparent that this poor old tub ( the gal, not me!) has been running without functioning glow plugs for a very long time, at least 20k. It always starts, albeit reluctantly when cold, apart from yesterday :huh: :lol: :).

 

I wonder if this is standard on all TDIs and if so it may be reassuring to others with glow plug problems.

 

It's also sobering to note that having 20L in your tank is not necessarily enough when trying to start on a steep hill.

 

Ron.

[wright476]

Ref cold starting same prob on T reg tdi if you disconnect he temp sensor plug then see how long your glow plugs stay on

[Scorpiorefugee]

Thanks for honouring me with your first post and welcome.

 

Actually, I just checked your joining date and no. of posts ??????

 

I still haven't got any power to my glow plugs - too cold and too busy. (I've clocked up more than 1200 miles already this week - that's nearly 2 whole tankfuls)

 

There seems to be some confusion about power to these things anyway. I recon they draw 60+ amps when on so I cannot imagine that they are on for long. From what I can gather they are on for about 2 seconds only at switch on and if you don't operate the starter for a few seconds it's better to switch off and try again.

There have been some suggestions that they are kept on for a little while at low power but cannot comment on that.

 

From my own long and sometimes bitter experience with all matters electronic it seems that very little of the technical descriptions for this sort of equipment is reliable as what is available is often written by well meaning but ill informed souls who have been forced to accept snippets supplied by manufacturers' flunkeys who themselves either know little or care little about the accuracy of what they release. It's no wonder that the official dealers can talk a lot of rubbish, it's what they're fed with.

 

Sorry! that is not a put down to anyone on this site. I believe that it is important that we all share and improve on what can be gleaned from any source.

 

Carry on the good work and thanks everyone.

 

Ron.

[Masked Marauder]

To check the wiring you should unplug the coolant temperature sender. Connect a volt meter to the glowplug harness and ground. Turn the ignition on, the glowplug harness should show just under the battery voltage for 20 seconds.

[Scorpiorefugee]

Thanks O masked one.

 

Sadly all done. No power nothing - nary even a microvolt.

 

It seems I have a 75 amp fuse blown or wiring fault.(Strewth, that would supply more power than the engine! Actually 900 watts or about 1 and a quarter horse power so perhaps not!)

 

More sad news. Ford have hidden the fuse. Seat Kid knows where but I'm going to need surgery before I can get at it!

 

On a slightly different note How sure are you that the plugs are supplied for that long? It's just that I'm a little confused as there are several views on this. Have you actually tested it 'cos if they are on for that long I'm not suprised the fuse gave up. I bridged a connection direct from the battery to just one of them and it was drawing more than a headlamp.

 

And all because the damned thing wouldn't start nose down on a 1 in 4 slope with a 1/4 tank of fuel..... :lol:

 

Ron.

[Scorpiorefugee]

OK I give up!

 

I have totally failed to find the fuse for the Glow plugs.

 

What I have under the dash on the driver's side looks exactly as shown in the haynes book and as shown in a pic supplied by Seat Kid.

 

I reluctantly removed 6 screws and a retaining clip to see what was behind the coved and was so terrified at the sight of all the elctronics with a dangrous clip trying to jab into the printed circuit that I put it all back together and, after a short prayer, was relieved to find that the thing still started.

 

So! Please please please, where is the damned thing. I cannot believe that even a car manufacturer would hide a fuse up there.

 

Haynes says that ther is a fuse box "in the left hand corner of the engine compartment" but I can't find that either.

 

:)

[Guest vr6galaxy]

The Haynes book wont help you :) it only covers Mk1 electrics, as for the fuse box in the engine bay? IIRC it was decicided that later TDI's dont have them :) the fuse your looking for is in the second level of the fuse panel, you were most likely looking at it when you had it apart!

[Scorpiorefugee]

Thanks for that.

 

I have to say that, having pulled it out, it didn't look like a second level of anything, more like a double sided printed panel, full of miniature chips and thick film type components covered by two halves of a plastic cover which was not thick enough to contain relays or fuses. I would have liked to have taken a picture of it but I didn't like to let go because of the risk of shorting out against the metal strap or other bits of framework. I was mighty relieved to see it clip back together. Incidentally, there was no way I could have even got close to getting it out without removing the plastic trim.

 

This is an S reg 90BHP(I think) model.

 

Is there a TIS disk available for this model?

[seatkid]

girls blouse.....:)

 

looks like I have to get my camera out again.... :)

[Scorpiorefugee]

You're not....

 

No......

 

 

For me????

 

 

Ahhhhh! ;)

[Scorpiorefugee]

Just a quick reply to bring it back to the top so VR6.. can see the fuse box.

[Scorpiorefugee]

Done!!!!! ;) ;) ;)

 

Glow plugs now work. :D :D :)

 

Cause:- Engine temperature sender. :D :) B)

 

Background:- I eventually found the fuse with the help of a TIS disk I got for my old Scorpio which also covers the Gal and gave just enough info to confirm and clarify all of the information that everyone had helpfully provided. It took a little time to prove that the control unit was not operating the relay.

 

It took a re-read of the TIS technical description to decide that the most likely culprit was the temperature sender which I had discounted because the temperature display was working normally but was not aware that it had two sensors, the other being used by the control system. I have not yet removed the thing for test/replacement and assume that it was signalling that the engine was in fact too hot to need glow plugs. This would also account for the fact that the radiator fan has always come on after switching off irrespective of the temperature.

 

I am assuming that, once the temperature sender has been replaced, I may see a considerable improvement in performance.

 

My thanks go to SeatKid for all of the useful information in the early days, especially the "girl's blouse" bit, and to Masked Marauder and Wright476 (wherever you are) for both suggesting the temperature sender, information which I discounted originally because I could not see how that would stop the glow plug circuit completely, even though the light was coming on for about a second and a half. Finally to VR6.. for pointing out that it is important to find the correct information for the age of the car.

 

Finally, my biggest fright came early on when, looking for the other levels of the fuse panel, I removed six screw and ended up with the control printed board in my hand, naked, alive and ticking as it were, with the light fading, rain coming on and an early start on a 500 mile round trip the next morning.

 

We do live and learn, don't we.

 

:) B) :D

 

Just one question now. The TIS information suggests that mine is a 110HP unit but the label on the timing chan cover is all scuffed off. Is there any other way of checking? I can't find anything on the block that is readable.