Galaxy Mk1 Overheating

[WayneAli]

Hi all,

 

Its been an age since I was last in here, July 2013 in fact, with intermittent relay issues - coincidentally all was resolved with the help from this forum - Thank you!

 

My problem this time around is with over-heating...

 

...Last week the water pump of my 1999 Mk1 galaxy 2.3 bit the dust and in the process tied the auxiliary belt in knots, one week on after reluctantly and cautiously (I'm by no means a mechanic - more of a car tinkerer) dropping the engine due to the pump being the only pulley to sit right behind the wheel arch, a new pump has been fitted along with a new belt. 

 

I now however have an issue with over-heating.  Before the failed pump the temperature gauge on the dash sat happily between the 'O' and 'R' of the 'NORM' - fluctuating between the two as the radiator fans kicked in and switched off, now after fitting the new pump its rising to just above the 'M' - just below the red.  I had a leak in the system within the heater matrix a couple of months back which (I can already hear the grumbles) was long-term/temporarily cured with Radweld - My knowledge and expertise unfortunately didn't extend as far as a complete dash removal to fix that one. My thoughts are erring towards a blockage, however, the fact that it was running fine before the failed pump issues left me wanting to question the somewhat more experienced before I begin the task of stripping down and flushing.

 

The only things touched when doing the work were obviously the water pump and auxiliary belt, the air filter was removed to access the off-side engine mount and the MAF was removed to have the cobwebs blown out. The rad fans are working - but working hard, they seem to be kicking in when the dash temp gauge gets to above the 'M' (of 'NORM') bringing the gauge back down to halfway through the 'M' - previously they were kicking in on the 'R' - this is causing me to think it could be a thermostat issue and not a Radweld blockage.

 

Any thoughts on this or suggestions of further checks I can undertake in order to narrow down fault finding would be great and very much appreciated. She's old and on 150 odd thousand miles - but she keeps plodding on and hopefully with a bit of help/advice I'll keep her going for a little longer - it would be great to be back in this forum in another 4 years with the same car needing another fix!

 

Many thanks in advance - Wayne

 

[WayneAli]

Ok, so this morning after reading up on various causes of over heating, I decided to purge any air that may be trapped in the system following draining for the pump change, the reservoir level had dropped by around 200 - 250ml since filling up after the pump change.

 

Following this, I went out for a drive experimenting with different settings and speeds, here are my findings:

 

At 55-60mph & internal heater and blowers on, the temp guage sat constantly between the 'N' & 'O' or NORM.

Increasing to 70mph with blowers on caused the needle to rise to between the 'O' and the 'R'.

20 - 30mph with blowers & heater on maintained steadily over the 'R', as does sitting stationary idling.

Turning the blowers off at any point caused the temp gauge to rise up over the 'M'

Turning the blowers back on caused a slow and steady decrease in temperature.

 

I have hot air coming out of the blowers and I did notice earlier when trying to purge any air out to the cooling system that there doesn't seem to be any water returning to the expansion bottle as the engine heated.

 

This may or may not help in fault finding.

 

Thanks again.

[BrianH]

I'd suspect you may have a blockage in the small breather hose on the pipe that comes up from the fan switch to the expansion tank - Though in itself that shouldn't cause overheating as such, it may be enough to trap air somewhere else as its a breather.

 

Given you've put radweld in it (not recommended - I've never known it to work personally, it seems to block up what wasn't leaking rather than do anything useful) I'd be tempted to remove the thermostat housing, clean it, fit a new thermostat and flush through that small pipe to see if you can get a flow through it.

 

Changing the heater matrix isn't actually as major a job as it appears. getting the dash out is the challenge due to it being rather bulky (you need 2 people really to do so successfully).

 

It could also be that the temp sender is reaching the end of its life - Mine when it went started shooting from one end of the gauge to the other, reading hot when the engine had just been started in the morning etc. Theres a second sensor you can monitor via obd, it may be worth looking at what thats showing as the other one isn't dampened like most modern ones are (it won't just sit at the middle of the range, it alters depending on what the temp is, and a couple of degrees change can make it move enough to notice).

 

Also with the fans is the air con switched on when your checking?

[sparky Paul]

Just to add to what Brian says above, your car is a 1999 model, so there should not be anything inside the thermostat housing on the end of the cylinder head. The housing looks like it should have a thermostat insert in it, but It should be completely empty. If there is a thermostat, and some people mistakenly fit one there, remove it.

 

The thermostat on the later 2.3 is fitted in the radiator pipework behind the radiator. It looks like a tee piece in the pipework, either made of brass (early type) or plastic (later replacement type).

 

One simple thing, which might sound stupid, but it is actually possible to fit the auxiliary belt wrong on the 2.3, and in fact the diagram on Ford TIS is wrong.

 

IIRC, it is possible to fit the belt wrong and spin the water pump backwards. The diagram in Mr Haynes' book is correct, if you have that. The simple rule is, inside of the belt around ribbed pulleys, backside of the belt go around smooth pulleys.

[WayneAli]

Thanks Paul & Brian,

 

I am going to give it a flush through over the next day or two and see what that reveals. Cheers Paul on the thermostat info, I had read elsewhere online that some people had found that "thermostat housing" empty, I have bought a new thermostat online but will discard that and just check to ensure ones not installed. I could only find a thermostat online that looked as though it would go in the housing at the end of the head. Will have to investigate around the rad to try and find that one.

 

Brian, I did contemplate repairing the matrix, I did one some years back on a previous car and remember the process of changing the matrix itself as being really simple - was just a nightmare getting to it (I think it was an old Mondeo I had). Looking at where the pipework enters from the engine side I'm assuming it is tucked as high as it could possibly be behind the dash. That said, it's only an educated guess that there's a matrix leak, based on losing a litre of coolant per month back in summer, steamy windows when the fans went on and the paddling pool that developed in my footwell.

 

Regarding the temp sender, I'll possibly just replace it - can't hurt for a few £££'s extra. Thanks for that.

 

And finally, I'm 95% certain Paul that the belt is on correctly, unfortunately I had no original belt to photo before removal as it had tied itself in a knot. I did start by following a diagram downloaded from the net but couldn't make it work, I needed another 2 inches of belt. I ended up roving it following my gut - and following the ribbed side to ribbed pulley theory. Funnily enough, I found a Haynes manual online yesterday, I haven't owned one of those for over 15 years but did remember them being the ultimate "go to" for car repairs - nowadays it's all to easy to jump online and forget what worked 20 or so years ago. Once it arrives I'll double check how I've fitted the belt.

 

Well, thanks again - that gives me a few bits to tinker with. I'm almost convinced on a blockage, I know the inner casement of the old water pump had completely disintegrated so im expecting some considerable sized bits of metal and rust to be floating around or lodged in the cooling system.

 

Will post over the next day or two on how I get on.

Edited October 10, 2017 by WayneAli

[sparky Paul]

Here's the haynes pic

 

 

The tensioner has to be cranked right back with a spanner to get a new belt on.

 

 

You can't miss the thermostat, it's a lump in the top hose pipework with three connections to it. The bottom pipe is a bypass back to the block - if there's any debris trapped in the thermostat, I don't think that will help matters.

Edited October 10, 2017 by sparky Paul

[sparky Paul]

One other thing, be careful if you have a poke around inside the thermostat. New ones are just over £100 from the main dealers nowadays.  :blink:

[WayneAli]

One other thing, be careful if you have a poke around inside the thermostat. New ones are just over £100 from the main dealers nowadays.  :blink:

 

Cheers Paul - Ouch!!!

 

Going to flush the system through tomorrow, have taken a couple of hours off work/duty (on-call firefighter) so hopefully can get it done undisturbed. Having a watch of a few YouTube videos on flushing the system, most show cleaning with radiator flush/cleaner (I'll pick up later) and then flushing the radiator through by removing the radiator drain plug and flushing with a garden hose from the expansion bottle.  As there is no drain plug on the Galaxy, would you recommend just removing the 1 1/2  inch hose entering the radiator around 4 inches up from the bottom.

 

Alternatively, do you have any suggestions on how best to rinse/flush the "entire" system. I have been trying to make sense of the pipework, trying to figure the best route to flush as much of the system as I can. I can just see me setting up the garden hose and just flushing 3 or 4 rubber pipes that bypass the whole engine.  :(

 

Oh and thanks for the Haynes pic - I did get it right!  :D 

Edited October 10, 2017 by WayneAli

[BrianH]

 

One other thing, be careful if you have a poke around inside the thermostat. New ones are just over £100 from the main dealers nowadays.  :blink:

 

Cheers Paul - Ouch!!!

 

Going to flush the system through tomorrow, have taken a couple of hours off work/duty (on-call firefighter) so hopefully can get it done undisturbed. Having a watch of a few YouTube videos on flushing the system, most show cleaning with radiator flush/cleaner (I'll pick up later) and then flushing the radiator through by removing the radiator drain plug and flushing with a garden hose from the expansion bottle.  As there is no drain plug on the Galaxy, would you recommend just removing the 1 1/2  inch hose entering the radiator around 4 inches up from the bottom.

 

Alternatively, do you have any suggestions on how best to rinse/flush the "entire" system. I have been trying to make sense of the pipework, trying to figure the best route to flush as much of the system as I can. I can just see me setting up the garden hose and just flushing 3 or 4 rubber pipes that bypass the whole engine.  :(

 

Oh and thanks for the Haynes pic - I did get it right!  :D

 

I really wouldn't use any flushing agent if you suspect a dodgy matrix - you will probably make it worse (your description does sound like a leaking matrix, you'd usally be able to smell coolant, as long as theres some in there anyway!) The rear washer is capable of flooding the footwell as well and is in the same area, so could be more than one possibility. The scuttle drains also can become blocked with leaves causing the scuttle area to fill with water, this can also flood the footwells so its possible one of those is causing the water and you have a leak somewhere else. The washer and drains are easy to fix if its them so worth checking both first if your not sure. If i find the photos taken when mine was swapped i will post them up.

 

When i was flushing the liquid rust out of mine i used the garden hose - the matrix was fairly easy to do as i've got access to both sides of it (or had whilst it still had its engine in place). I just flushed it till the water ran clear every way i could do.

 

I also ended up replacing the radiator as it was rotten at both ends and started leaking.

 

You might find the t piece in the front (underneath the radiator area) is your easiest place to drain out of - its big, and at about the lowest point you can get to (I'd assume the 2.3 and 2.0 are the same here, but there is a long run under the lower edge of the radiator, with a t in the middle of it).

[BrianH]

Attached is the photo of the heater matrix location - the only really tricky part was finding one of the bolts that held the dashboard in (one is hidden behind the heater intake box where the pollen filter sits, accessed from under the windscreen wiper motor area - theres 2 here, one can be seen, other can't but can be felt once you know where to look)

[sparky Paul]

Yes, good advice about flushing from Brian. You shouldn't need to do any more than dropping the bottom hose off the rad and flushing through with the hosepipe.

 

I assume that you're not still losing any water?

[WayneAli]

Thanks to you both for all the help.

 

Successful flush out this morning, unfortunately still over heating. I feel I'm getting closer to the inevitable head gasket. Haynes manual arrived today and even decided to check out how viable a head gasket change is - 3 Haynes manual spanners - it's a possibility!

I have thought about the temp sender unit Brian, and also came across another thread where you gave advice on this issue. Just looking at the various tell tale signs of this failing and not sure if this is the issue, the gauge seems to be reading fine, no erratic behaviour, just running hot.

 

What are your thoughts on head/block sealer, I'm guessing it's down there on par with radweld. May get Green Flag out to run a test on the head/block.

[BrianH]

I'd start with monitoring that other temp sensor - I wouldn't be convinced it really is overheating. I've used an obd reader (bluetooth one) and torque app on an android phone to monitor (this is how i could tell when mine went on route to plymouth showing the red flashing light and temp gauge shot upto the top end that it was actually only running at 88 degrees at the time, it became obvious as the sender got worse that it was faulty as the gauge would hover all over the place, showing impossible readings (overheating when its just been started being the most obvious).

 

When you've got an actual idea what temp its running you then know what your dealing with. you need a reader capable of displaying live data, and using SAE J1850PWM protocal

 

I've never used the head/block sealer, though others have sworn by it. I'd suspect since you have a known cause with the original failure that you've addressed then it might work, but only if thats actually the problem. The real question as Paul says, is are you still losing water from somewhere?

[sparky Paul]

What are your thoughts on head/block sealer, I'm guessing it's down there on par with radweld.

 

If you want my opinion, and I have seen most things tried over the years, don't waste your money. If you are suspecting head gasket failure, none of these additives will work for long, if at all.

 

Radweld, K-Seal, etc. works on joint leaks or weeping radiators. The resin based ones which require you to remove the antifreeze and replace after treatment. such as Wondarweld, I have seen used successfully on porous block and block cracks. Having owned Renaults, sadly, I know plenty about head gasket failures.

 

As Brian says, make sure you do actually have a overheating issue. That said, it sounds like your gauge readings are plausible for a genuine overheating issue. Any other symptoms making you think HGF?

 

Pressurising coolant system.

Oil emulsification.

Combustion fumes in header tank, give it a sniff.

Recurring airlocks.

Coolant loss.

White smoke from exhaust.

Slower than usual starting.

Staining around header tank (cap relief valve leakage).

[WayneAli]

Cheers guys,

 

No other real symptoms of a hgf other than a horrible gut feeling.

 

I decided to take it up to the fire station and give the system a flush through with the hose up there, simply because the hose is 1 3/4 inch and fits perfectly inside the rad pipework.  I flushed from both the top rad hose, then back-flushed from the bottom. When flushing from the bottom, the water was filthy but eventually ran clear. I then ran water through the block, which coincidentally wasn't too bad, put it all back together and topped up...

 

...Still over heating.

 

Initially I thought thermostat in the top rad hose, but if this was seized closed am I right in thinking this wouldn't of flushed with cold water. The internal heater matrix shouldn't be blocked as the engine temp is dropping when the internal heaters go on, so water must be passing through. the radiator fan it triggering and running but not lowering the temperature sufficiently.  The only way I can get the temperature to stabilise is with the heater blowers on number 2 and the temperature on high.

 

I have run 'Hi-Gear Permanent Block and Radiator Seal' through (I can hear the sighs) as it is still losing a bit of water through the matrix.

 

Temp wise, I went out for a steady run last week with a wifi obd reader sitting at around 60mph with a couple of roundabouts, Torque got up to around 106'C with all internal heaters off, dropped to 90'C once the heaters were put on.

 

Any other ideas would be great, I'm a bit limited with regards taking it out now as it failed the MOT the other day on emissions (along with a couple of other bits) - they said they couldn't test them as the temperature climbed too quickly and were concerned about overheating.  

 

 

On a different matter, if you have any thoughts on the airbag warning light, I've started another thread here, http://www.fordgalaxy.org.uk/ford/index.php?/topic/27743-mk1-galaxy-squib-issue/

Just another MOT failure.  :(

Edited November 22, 2017 by WayneAli