Mk1 Galaxy 2.3 Dohc Engine With Minimalistic Electronics

[Zipi]

Hi,

 

I purchased and dismantled one Mk1 year 1999 model Ford Galaxy with 2.3 litre DOHC engine. I do have all of the electronics boxes and wiring set (or actually what is still left of the wiring set). 

 

Some time ago my setup looked like this:

 

 

But since then I stripped everything useless away from the wiring set except the instrumentation cluster. Now my issue is that the engine runs nicely and seems to be working perfectly well, but the OBD diagnostic does not work. I have tried with ELM 327 and Forscan, which worked perfectly well before I stripped the wiring set, but now it just says it cannot connect to ECU. I have also tried with VCDS Lite and VAG KKL (blue cable), which is only able to see the instrumentation cluster, but not ECU.

 

I have checked the ECU data connection to OBD socket and that is perfectly like it should be and also giving the expected voltages. However since I do not have the central junction box in place I have PATS connector pin 7 (W-line) without any connection. Like advised here:

 

https://www.vag-info.com/VW%20without%20CAN_Emulator.pdf

 

I have tried to connect it together with K-line, but no luck with this... So it looks that the central junction box connector P6 is at least having something important that is needed for ECU OBD diagnostics to work. But can somebody please tell what wires are as minimum needed for OBD diagnostics for ECU to work? I will dismantle the instrumentation cluster sooner or later and I don't have any need for VAG specific diagnostics, so I only would like to have Ford EEC-5 diagnostics to work. 

 

All the help is greatly appreciated! This issue arise because it looked that ELM 327 was working nicely when I time to time tested the setup since all of the lights lit up and engine started, but seems that some cursed VAG component is needed before ECU want to talk about its diagnostics... Second immobilizer (PATS) box of this page is having 8 pin connector like I, but my box has yellow sticker:

 

http://transpondery.com/pinout_guides/vag_immobox_pinout.html 

 

But since the engine starts and runs nicely, probably this ECU diagnostic issue is not at least directly caused by PATS box...

[sparky Paul]

The 2.3 uses the J1850 PWM protocol, specifically pins 2 &10 for data, pins 4/5 GND, and pin 16 +VE on the OBD socket. Presuming you have power, it may be worth checking that 2 & 10 go back to the ECU.

[Zipi]

Thanks sparky Paul, I have checked all of the OBD connector wires and they are going to correct locations + are giving expected voltages:

 

http://docslide.us/download/link/3984-galaxypdf

 

I have used above wiring diagram to verify this. Unfortunately the wiring diagram does not include pretty much anything about immobilizer/PATS wiring, like that pin 7 W-line. Would be nice to find a wiring diagram that shows wires per each connector, like where each wire is going from central junction box connector P6 (and probably P5 also). Does anybody know has Ford TIS these connector specific diagrams?

 

[EDIT]Actually it would be also helpful in case some 2.3 DOHC Mk1 Galaxy owner would test which of the central junction box connectors are needed to be in place as minimum for OBD ECU diagnostic to work... My guess is that P6 is at least needed, but likely also P5, but no others.[/EDIT]

Edited March 22, 2017 by Zipi

[sparky Paul]

PATS information is very thin on the ground, and I'm certainly no expert on the mysteries of PATS.

 

Are you absolutely certain that your ELM327 interface actually connected to the engine ECU before you ripped it all out? There are a number of these interfaces in circulation which do not work with J1850 PWM protocol. Even some of the interfaces which list that they are compatible are not... I have a bluetooth one here which was sold as being J1850 PWM compatible, but didn't work on the Galaxy. When I opened it up, I found that pins 2 & 10 weren't even connected to anything.

 

One other thing, the VAG-COM KKL cable and/or VCDS will not see the Ford engine at all.

[BrianH]

I can tell you this much that may or may not help, If you have the relay 30 issue (bad solder joints in the relay marked 30 causing the immobiliser to fail to deactivate) that at the times you have the failure to start, you will also have no communication with the OBD interface. I know that from when I first had my Galaxy before I found the cause of the starting issue. And ditto with the interfaces that say they are j1850 compatible when they aren't - I've got two of "the same" interface  - one works, other does not. Though reading your post suggests it did work before removal.

[sparky Paul]

reading your post suggests it did work before removal

 

That's the impression I got from the OP, but I thought it would be worth making absolutely sure he had connected it up and had it working before.

[Zipi]

Thanks for your replies, especially you BrianH! This is something that I need to check since I do have one relay that has it's negative control wire unconnected. I don't just now remember what it was, but I think it was related to air condition since when giving negative control signal it starts the engine cooling fans after a short delay, but it is not the bigger relay that actually controls the fans (and starts them immediately). Finnish hand book said it is a "switch relay" only present with 2.3 litre DOHC engine, but this can be a translation issue also...

 

Here is the "proof" that ELM327 worked with Forscan:

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/BQpkZC0llCK/?taken-by=sipposa

 

Hopefully this is just a relay issue, since I'm thinking that I'm missing some feature from the central junction box that is polled by the ECU during it's initialization that causes it not to respond with OBD/J1850 protocol. But of course it can be an issue that has been now developed with my ELM327, but that would be a little weird. However I'm travelling the next couple of days and likely can continue working with this soonest on Saturday.

 

[EDIT]By the way: What OBD interface tool you would recommend to be used with this Galaxy engine?[/EDIT]

Edited March 27, 2017 by Zipi

[sparky Paul]

Don't need to see proof, just checking to make sure we aren't overlooking something silly. If it worked before, I doubt very much that's the problem. The relay 30 issue can be a pain, it is often intermittant at first, and I have no doubt that disturbing everything could provoke a dodgy relay into causing trouble.

 

This thread shows you where relay 30 is. It's a mk.2 car, but your 1999 car essentially has the mk.2 fusebox, BeCM and other electrics - the mk.1 electrics were heavily revised in late 1998.

 

As for OBD, I just use a cheap, generic USB interface, but it obviously has to be J1850 compatible... some of them sold now are not, as it's an old protocol. I usually use ScanTool software, it works but is very basic.

[Zipi]

Thanks sparky Paul! This was actually a really good piece of information, since now I know that I need to be finding Mk2 wiring diagram from somewhere. The Mk1 diagram I currently have definitely has certain things missing based on my investigations so far. My fuse/relay box assembly looks exactly the same like at those pictures.

[BrianH]

Don't need to see proof, just checking to make sure we aren't overlooking something silly. If it worked before, I doubt very much that's the problem. The relay 30 issue can be a pain, it is often intermittant at first, and I have no doubt that disturbing everything could provoke a dodgy relay into causing trouble.

 

This thread shows you where relay 30 is. It's a mk.2 car, but your 1999 car essentially has the mk.2 fusebox, BeCM and other electrics - the mk.1 electrics were heavily revised in late 1998.

 

As for OBD, I just use a cheap, generic USB interface, but it obviously has to be J1850 compatible... some of them sold now are not, as it's an old protocol. I usually use ScanTool software, it works but is very basic.

I'm thinking rather than dodgy relay that its just not connected at all, or at least not providing the signal needed to allow communication. I could definitely get the engine to crank in this state, though it wouldn't start. Mine was/is the 2.0l though i don't think that will come into it much anyway. It might be worth pulling the relay (its on the 2nd level of the fusebox, but at least you won't have the usual job of pulling the fusebox out to get to it!) and checking the joints inside it - they just go dry and maybe moving it about has caused the problem. The naming of the relay varies, and is usually quite vague as to what it actually does anyway (i seem to remember power control relay being used at some point - absolutely meaningless description as they all control power!)

 

I doubt its anything with your interface, easiest way to prove is to put it on another vehicle to test it. Any older Ford should be fine for this purpose

 

Only other thought is can you hook up the door led in some way (the one on the drivers door card) and see what its doing? Rapid flashing would indicate some sort of immobiliser issue, likely relay 30 usually, though could be down to a missing component in your case obviously?

[Zipi]

Only other thought is can you hook up the door led in some way (the one on the drivers door card) and see what its doing? Rapid flashing would indicate some sort of immobiliser issue, likely relay 30 usually, though could be down to a missing component in your case obviously?

 

 

I have been also thinking to check this led, but first I need to find where it has been connected, since all of the door wires I already have cut away. :-)

 

If you happen to know where this led positive/negative wires are coming I will check this. The wiring diagram I have does not unfortunately tell this.

 

About testing ELM327, for that I do have 2002 model Fiesta with all mighty 1,3 kent engine + EEC-V ECU, so this is also something that I will do.

[BrianH]

I will have a look in the haynes manual once I have my Galaxy back (my brother is currently borrowing it, and its in the seat pocket I think) to see if the wiring diagram gives any clues. Suspected that might be a problem.

[Zipi]

I will have a look in the haynes manual once I have my Galaxy back (my brother is currently borrowing it, and its in the seat pocket I think) to see if the wiring diagram gives any clues. Suspected that might be a problem.

 

This is the same diagram like Mk1 Haynes has (but this is with colors):

 

http://docslide.us/download/link/3984-galaxypdf

 

I do have Haynes manual for Mk1 Galaxy. This diagram has only two diodes that it mentions, but at least by looking the connections they are not looking like light emitting diodes to me... Unfortunately Haynes diagram has things missing related to ECU, PATS and central junction box, at least when it is about these late Mk1 models. I tried today to search similar diagram for Mk2 Galaxy, but looks to be very hard thing to find... Maybe I need to get Ford TIS, since it might include more complete wiring diagram.

[BrianH]

 

I will have a look in the haynes manual once I have my Galaxy back (my brother is currently borrowing it, and its in the seat pocket I think) to see if the wiring diagram gives any clues. Suspected that might be a problem.

 

This is the same diagram like Mk1 Haynes has (but this is with colors):

 

http://docslide.us/download/link/3984-galaxypdf

 

I do have Haynes manual for Mk1 Galaxy. This diagram has only two diodes that it mentions, but at least by looking the connections they are not looking like light emitting diodes to me... Unfortunately Haynes diagram has things missing related to ECU, PATS and central junction box, at least when it is about these late Mk1 models. I tried today to search similar diagram for Mk2 Galaxy, but looks to be very hard thing to find... Maybe I need to get Ford TIS, since it might include more complete wiring diagram.

 

I've got tis, but don't find it particually helpful. now you say i think Haynes deliberately don't publish any of the pats info hence its like it doesn't exist in the manual.

 

This might help in conjunction with what you posted above

 

Drivers door connector pinout

http://www.forum.fordmpv.com/smf2/ford-galaxy/drivers-door-wire-loom-connector/#sthash.fFvG1GcM.dpbs

 

This should show all the wires going to the door - if you use your posted pages above you should be able to narrow down your options by removing the ones related to

Central locking

Windows

Heated/electric mirrors

Door speakers

 

This shouldn't leave many options left then, the wires have to pass through this point so should give you a starting point with any luck.

 

Out of interest are you just experimenting, or do you have a use for the engine in some other manner?

[BrianH]

This also looks possible - http://www.justanswer.com/uk-ford/1x630-galaxy-plate-the-rear-door-hatch-no-longer-opens-wiring.html

 

Look at connection m25 - the diagrams aren't the best, i'd assume its the ecu there for the central locking, it may not quite match yours though.

[sparky Paul]

The drawings in TIS are much more comprehensive and specific to age, but they can be very difficult to follow as they are chopped up into small bits. I'm not sure if all the PATS stuff is there, it's a while since I looked at it - but I have a feeling there are still bits missing.

 

The Haynes drawings are very sketchy, and I found they often didn't match what was on the car.

[Zipi]

Thanks BrianH, I need to take a look of these during the weekend since I'm still at work related travel trip.

 

My intention is to first get the engine running with minimalistic electronics + diagnostic interfaces. And now only this later part, meaning diagnostics is missing since the engine runs nicely. After electronics things sorted out I will start converting it to be used at my 4x4 Sierra, that still have 8v 2.0 liter DOHC engine. This engine has been driven about 260 000km and since there seem to be Galaxys at sale that have over 400 000km driven, it should still have many kilometers to go. But obviously I will do some maintenance as well to it, but I have not decided the extent of that.

 

About the conversion to 4x4 Sierra engine, I will most likely retain the coolant flow like it is now, since RWD configuration has certain issues with the intake manifold durability related to the thermostat housing it has integrated. Basically this also mean that I don't have the need to take the engine head away and replacing the head gasget when maintaining the coolant flow like it is. Things that I really must do is to remove the balancing shaft, change the oil sump and oil pump intake pipe. This conversion process I have studied and likely there will be no bigger surprises to me. But it remains to be seen do I still open the head and replace the gasget, but then if I'm starting this level of maintenance it will probably means that I will also change the piston rings etc. which makes the project more expensive that I try to avoid.

 

But hopefully this description of mechanical changes I have planned does not disturb the electronics discussion ongoing at the moment. ;-)

[sparky Paul]

Not at all, it's interesting to know what you are up to! B)

 

About the cooling system, I guess you have found that the thermostat housing on the end of the head is empty, and the thermostat is in the top radiator pipe...

Edited March 30, 2017 by sparky Paul

[BrianH]

Thanks BrianH, I need to take a look of these during the weekend since I'm still at work related travel trip.

 

My intention is to first get the engine running with minimalistic electronics + diagnostic interfaces. And now only this later part, meaning diagnostics is missing since the engine runs nicely. After electronics things sorted out I will start converting it to be used at my 4x4 Sierra, that still have 8v 2.0 liter DOHC engine. This engine has been driven about 260 000km and since there seem to be Galaxys at sale that have over 400 000km driven, it should still have many kilometers to go. But obviously I will do some maintenance as well to it, but I have not decided the extent of that.

 

About the conversion to 4x4 Sierra engine, I will most likely retain the coolant flow like it is now, since RWD configuration has certain issues with the intake manifold durability related to the thermostat housing it has integrated. Basically this also mean that I don't have the need to take the engine head away and replacing the head gasget when maintaining the coolant flow like it is. Things that I really must do is to remove the balancing shaft, change the oil sump and oil pump intake pipe. This conversion process I have studied and likely there will be no bigger surprises to me. But it remains to be seen do I still open the head and replace the gasget, but then if I'm starting this level of maintenance it will probably means that I will also change the piston rings etc. which makes the project more expensive that I try to avoid.

 

But hopefully this description of mechanical changes I have planned does not disturb the electronics discussion ongoing at the moment. ;-)

 

Not at all - it gives a bit of variety to the usual mix of broken wires and other common Galaxy issues that crop up here. The 2.0 i've got I believe is very close to the engine used in the Sierra - 2.0 Dohc 8v lump. Thats still going at 230k miles, but does need some attention at this point. I've got it back tonight now though!.

 

Let us know how you get on anyway, hopefully you will get it sorted one way or another (Info on the pats system I'd suspect is what you could really do with, TIS may be the way to go if you can find something to run it on. I've got it running in an XP VM also with Microcat as it doesn't like 64 bit windows and i doubt it would run too well on windows 10 either).

[Zipi]

About the cooling system, I guess you have found that the thermostat housing on the end of the head is empty, and the thermostat is in the top radiator pipe...

 

Yes, I have noted this and currently the cooling system at my engine test trolley emulates Galaxy's cooling system very closely, meaning I'm using the original Galaxy thermostat mounted to the radiator pipe. I will locate the thermostat somewhere else than the end of the head, even it would be possible to locate it there as well, but from maintenance point of view that would be a very inconvenient location. Likely I will create a new thermostat housing that will be bolted in place of the current empty housing at the back of the head which brings the thermostat somewhere nearby the intake manifold, or then using pipes to do this. But I think it would be better fit for Sierra to have the thermostat at the intake manifold side somehow even taking the coolant flow from the back of the head.

 

I will be updating this thread at least as long as I find out how to sort out the electronics. After that maybe I can sometimes post an update here as well, but basically you can follow my progress from Instagram.

 

About getting TIS to run: Most likely I will manage since I'm IT professional as my daily work. ;-)    But let's see in which order I will be working on this topic/issue.

[BrianH]

 

About the cooling system, I guess you have found that the thermostat housing on the end of the head is empty, and the thermostat is in the top radiator pipe...

 

Yes, I have noted this and currently the cooling system at my engine test trolley emulates Galaxy's cooling system very closely, meaning I'm using the original Galaxy thermostat mounted to the radiator pipe. I will locate the thermostat somewhere else than the end of the head, even it would be possible to locate it there as well, but from maintenance point of view that would be a very inconvenient location. Likely I will create a new thermostat housing that will be bolted in place of the current empty housing at the back of the head which brings the thermostat somewhere nearby the intake manifold, or then using pipes to do this. But I think it would be better fit for Sierra to have the thermostat at the intake manifold side somehow even taking the coolant flow from the back of the head.

 

I will be updating this thread at least as long as I find out how to sort out the electronics. After that maybe I can sometimes post an update here as well, but basically you can follow my progress from Instagram.

 

About getting TIS to run: Most likely I will manage since I'm IT professional as my daily work. ;-)    But let's see in which order I will be working on this topic/issue.

 

If you've got an old spare machine running a 32 bit os it should just install. I think it dates from the days of win 9x (don't think looking at the models listed on mine that it covers much beyond the mk2 galaxy). Otherwise vmware player or hyperv with an xp machine should work ok.

[Zipi]

I found the driver's door led wires from the wiring set: red/white is continuous +12 line, for this I will use the same fuse like for OBD port power. Blue wire goes to PATS pin 7 it seems, and also to central junction box connector P6 pin 23.

 

Relay 27, marked with number 30 seems to operate normally and all of its wires are connected. So far no luck getting ECU OBD diagnostics back operational though...

[BrianH]

So does the led (assuming you've fitted one there flash? Light up? Flash slowly or quickly? Do nothing?

[Zipi]

Led lights up for a while when turning the key to running position. In case I remove key from PATS tranceiver and turn on the power, led blinks rapidly. I'm sure I have the led wired correctly now.

 

By the way, does anybody know what is the purple wire? Goes to ECU pin 58, central junction box connector P6 and also to instrument cluster. Also looks to be going to cruise control box, power mirrors, then it changes color to red when it goes to radio connector pin 1. There is one white wire as well connected to this purple, but that I don't know for sure where it goes.

 

But this likely has something to do with the diagnostics... And would be nice to understand what it is.

Edited April 2, 2017 by Zipi

[Zipi]

If this is correct:

 

http://www.tehnomagazin.com/Auto-radio-car-connector/VW-Car-Radio-Wiring-Connector.htm

 

Then radio connector pin 1 should get +12 when the power is on. Meaning that the purple wire at ECU pin 58 should get the same when following the wiring diagram pages 7, 10 and 12. This could be the issue causing my OBD read problem...