2.3 Petrol Mk2 - Car Shaking At Idle

[julian95]

My galaxy will start after a long crank but their will be a lot of smoke coming out of the exhaust pipe from where the AA bloke overfilled the oil, I have drained it out, installed a new oil filter and put in some new oil and its just below the maximum mark. You have to hold down the accelerator to keep the engine alive or it will stall. The car is shaking sort of like its misfiring every second. When holding it at 2000rpm it sounds like a steam train. If you accelerate the engine any faster it then sounds like a a motorbike at standstill. I will post a link to a youtube video when I manage to get it started again as I tried starting it earlier and it was cranking but no start and it came up with Airbag fault.

 

The AA Report says that I had Trouble Code: P0501

 

Any Ideas??

 

 

 

Car: Ford Galaxy Ghia 2001 2.3 Petrol (MK2) DOHC Engine.

[sparky Paul]

Sounds like severe misfiring, possibly due to oil contamination, or lack of compression. How long (and how hard) was it driven with the oil overfilled? It's possible that you could be looking at blown piston rings, or other damage.

 

Take the plugs out and see if, and how badly, they are fouled with oil. Clean them up with a bit of petrol and try again... If there is no improvement, I would think about getting a compression test done as it may give you some clues.

 

Are you losing any coolant at all?

[insanitybeard]

Why did the AA have to top up the oil? Was there another fault that you had to call them out for or was it related to the poor running?

[julian95]

Why did the AA have to top up the oil? Was there another fault that you had to call them out for or was it related to the poor running?

The AA thought there was a lack of oil which was causing the poor running.

 

 

Sounds like severe misfiring, possibly due to oil contamination, or lack of compression. How long (and how hard) was it driven with the oil overfilled? It's possible that you could be looking at blown piston rings, or other damage.

 

Take the plugs out and see if, and how badly, they are fouled with oil. Clean them up with a bit of petrol and try again... If there is no improvement, I would think about getting a compression test done as it may give you some clues.

 

Are you losing any coolant at all?

 

It was driven about 60mph for about 15 mins before it stalled on my nans drive which is where it's currently sat.

 

I will inspect the plugs tomorrow.

 

I am not loosing any coolant.

 

Here is another thing I have noticed. The parking sensor has a fault and I noticed someone had almost the same problem and he said that the parking sensor module was effecting his Vehicle Speed Sensor. I am confused about whether that is related. According to the AA I need to replace the Speed Sensor but the speedo was working so I don't think it could be the VSS. Could the VSS be a possibility?

[insanitybeard]

Was there any smoke before the oil was overfilled? To be honest it would have to have been MAJORLY overfilled to enter the combustion chamber and cause smoke out of the exhaust, if it was running badly before it was overfilled with oil it sounds like a base engine fault- low compression caused by wear or component failure- eg, pistons/ rings/ valves, resulting in poor running and oil burning/ loss. Has the engine done a lot of miles? Is the smoke dark or white in colour (is it burnt oil or unburned fuel)?

Edited January 28, 2014 by insanitybeard

[julian95]

Was there any smoke before the oil was overfilled? To be honest it would have to have been MAJORLY overfilled to enter the combustion chamber and cause smoke out of the exhaust, if it was running badly before it was overfilled with oil it sounds like a base engine fault- low compression caused by wear or component failure- eg, pistons/ rings/ valves, resulting in poor running and oil burning/ loss. Has the engine done a lot of miles? Is the smoke dark or white in colour (is it burnt oil or unburned fuel)?

There was no smoke before it was overfilled just normal exhaust. It was about 2 liters overfilled. The engine has only do 92,000 miles and looking into the engine from the hole where you put the oil, the inside parts (Looks like the pistons) are nice and coated in a nice golden color oil which is good. The smoke is a dense grey, smells like the engine is running rich as the smoke smells strongly of Unleaded exhaust and a slight hint of oil where the oil is burning off from the overfill.

 

Also just a note, before this event, about a week before the engine occasionally misfired on acceleration from standstill and I got fault code P0301.

One time it misfired on whilst going around a roundabout and kept doing a kangaroo motion after 10 seconds it was fine.

When it misfired it was going slow, then you would hear a loud Clunk from somewhere and then it would be fine until you stopped then the process would restart when you accelerated to go.

Edited January 28, 2014 by julian95

[insanitybeard]

Hm, well in that case as Sparky Paul said maybe the excess oil has caused the severe misfiring and fouled up the plugs but how bad was the problem before that resulted in you calling out the AA in the first place? For an AA technician to overfill the oil by 2 litres is a pretty poor show, he should know better than that!

[julian95]

Hm, well in that case as Sparky Paul said maybe the excess oil has caused the severe misfiring and fouled up the plugs but how bad was the problem before that resulted in you calling out the AA in the first place? For an AA technician to overfill the oil by 2 litres is a pretty poor show, he should know better than that!

I shall be checking the plugs tomorrow, I may just replace them as I can't remember how long it's been since they have been changed and whilst I'm at it I may as well replace the HT Leads. Basically the AA Bloke thought the engine was sticking, we told him it was misfiring and he thought he knew best. We have submitted a complaint and the AA Guy was dismissed for misjudgment and not taking customers thoughts into consideration. He didn't even check the Dipstick!

 

Also what about the problems before this event? (Mentioned in my previous comment) The Oil wasn't overfilled or low then.

Edited January 28, 2014 by julian95

[insanitybeard]

So you had a misfire before the oil overfill incident? I know that the type of coil packs fitted to the 2.3 petrol engine are prone to failure (as are most eventually to be fair) so there is a good chance that the coil packs could be to blame (there are only 2 HT leads if I recall correctly as the engine has 2 coil packs under the removable cover with the 'FORD' logo on it and each one connects directly to a spark plug leaving just 2 separate leads for the other 2 plugs). Hopefully the oil overfill has not caused more serious damage! How somebody with that kind of mentality got in to the AA beats me!  :wacko:

[julian95]

So you had a misfire before the oil overfill incident? I know that the type of coil packs fitted to the 2.3 petrol engine are prone to failure (as are most eventually to be fair) so there is a good chance that the coil packs could be to blame (there are only 2 HT leads if I recall correctly as the engine has 2 coil packs under the removable cover with the 'FORD' logo on it and each one connects directly to a spark plug leaving just 2 separate leads for the other 2 plugs). Hopefully the oil overfill has not caused more serious damage! How somebody with that kind of mentality got in to the AA beats me!  :wacko:

Yes it started 2 weeks or so before the overfill incident, the misfires turned into this situation that I'm having now, so we called the AA and he overfilled the oil and I done an oil change and now I'm back to where I was before the AA came out. There are 4 leads coming off the coil pack going into the engine under that removable cover and that then shows each lead going down to the sparks. There are 4 Spark plugs. I only thought there was one coil pack on my car.  :wacko: I will check the sparks tomorrow and get the HT Leads, new sparks and coil pack on order and I'll keep you posted. Thank you for your time tonight :) It's really helpful. I'll chat tomorrow :) Have a good night. And thank you to you as well Sparky Paul :)

Edited January 28, 2014 by julian95

[insanitybeard]

No worries, possibly two different types of coil pack were used on the 2.3 engine then- a single one mounted at the end of the cylinder head (exposed) and the 2 separate ones mounted under the removable cover going directly onto the spark plugs. Both types can fail, if yours has done 92K and not gone yet it's not done bad! The one I had on the Ford Ka I had before the Galaxy went at 50K, and when that went it sounded like a boat, it was chugging so badly!  

[BrianH]

Yes it started 2 weeks or so before the overfill incident, the misfires turned into this situation that I'm having now, so we called the AA and he overfilled the oil and I done an oil change and now I'm back to where I was before the AA came out. There are 4 leads coming off the coil pack going into the engine under that removable cover and that then shows each lead going down to the sparks. There are 4 Spark plugs. I only thought there was one coil pack on my car.  :wacko: I will check the sparks tomorrow and get the HT Leads, new sparks and coil pack on order and I'll keep you posted. Thank you for your time tonight :) It's really helpful. I'll chat tomorrow :) Have a good night. And thank you to you as well Sparky Paul :)

 

I recall seeing someone having done a mod to allow a Mondeo coilpack to be used in place of the separate 2.3 ones - I think on this forum. what you describe seeing sounds to me like that may be whats been done? It might be worth trying to get a photo up here for others to have a look at?

[julian95]

I recall seeing someone having done a mod to allow a Mondeo coilpack to be used in place of the separate 2.3 ones - I think on this forum. what you describe seeing sounds to me like that may be whats been done? It might be worth trying to get a photo up here for others to have a look at?

I shall get a photo of the coil pack up soon :)

 

 

No worries, possibly two different types of coil pack were used on the 2.3 engine then- a single one mounted at the end of the cylinder head (exposed) and the 2 separate ones mounted under the removable cover going directly onto the spark plugs. Both types can fail, if yours has done 92K and not gone yet it's not done bad! The one I had on the Ford Ka I had before the Galaxy went at 50K, and when that went it sounded like a boat, it was chugging so badly!  

I have looked at the Sparks, they are clean. The HT Leads are a bit burnt on the bit that connects to the sparks. I have cleaned them up a bit to make sure the connections are fine. Still same problems, no improvements.

[julian95]

Here is a link to the photos on Photobucket.

http://s1120.photobucket.com/user/gmdjgp/library/Car%20Photos

 

There are 2 pics of the Coil pack and 2 pics of the HT Leads as they are now.

[insanitybeard]

I would say that the coil pack is prime suspect, don't run the engine or drive the vehicle until you get it sorted, the unburned fuel can damage the catalytic converter. Also, it may well be worth changing the spark plugs and leads at the same time, they can also break down over time and not in a way that you can tell just by looking at them.

 

It appears that Ford used both configurations of coil pack on this engine, the other type sits directly over the spark plug and uses 2 coil packs per engine.

Edited January 30, 2014 by insanitybeard

[julian95]

I would say that the coil pack is prime suspect, don't run the engine or drive the vehicle until you get it sorted, the unburned fuel can damage the catalytic converter. Also, it may well be worth changing the spark plugs and leads at the same time, they can also break down over time and not in a way that you can tell just by looking at them.

 

It appears that Ford used both configurations of coil pack on this engine, the other type sits directly over the spark plug and uses 2 coil packs per engine.

 

Ok I will do replace it and I'll let you know what happens.

Edited January 30, 2014 by julian95

[viperclive]

The coil packs are pain, always going, got now to the stage of carrying a spare one, also plugs, ht leads under driving seat.

[sparky Paul]

Yes, the later 2.3 was fitted with two different coil pack arrangements.

 

AFAIK, the later setup with the four output coil is more reliable, but it's certainly possible that one of the coils in the pack has gone up the spout - this would lose spark on two cylinders and give you the severe misfiring you describe.

 

Clean plugs, unburnt fuel in the exhaust and the previous misfiring also points towards suspect coil pack.

 

It's worth noting that the tipped spark plugs on these last 40,000 miles, and very soon go downhill at around this mileage.

Edited January 30, 2014 by sparky Paul

[julian95]

Yes, the later 2.3 was fitted with two different coil pack arrangements.

 

AFAIK, the later setup with the four output coil is more reliable, but it's certainly possible that one of the coils in the pack has gone up the spout - this would lose spark on two cylinders and give you the severe misfiring you describe.

 

Clean plugs, unburnt fuel in the exhaust and the previous misfiring also points towards suspect coil pack.

 

It's worth noting that the tipped spark plugs on these last 40,000 miles, and very soon go downhill at around this mileage.

When the AA bloke tested the spark plugs he said they were working fine and he pulled off each lead and the engine got worse each time, do you still think the coil pack is to blame? I just want to be sure before I spend money.

Edited January 30, 2014 by julian95

[insanitybeard]

You have to remember that a misfire is just that- it's (usually) an intermittent, not continuous loss of spark to one or more cylinders, sometimes a misfire will only happen under load, e.g, on a hill with heavy throttle, not just coasting on the level. So in most cases removing the spark completely by disconnecting the plugs should still result in a worse running engine! I'm not saying that it can only be the coil pack (and maybe plugs and leads) at fault, but in most cases it is the culprit. 

[sparky Paul]

There are so many reasons why a petrol engine may misfire, including low compression, ignition timing, valve timing, fuel pressure, injector timing, etc., etc., it can be difficult to diagnose accurately without actually doing the tests required. The coil pack issue is a common one, so worth checking out.

 

Is the engine fault light (MIL) on?

 

P0301 is a cylinder 1 misfire, if you sure this is the only trouble code raised, then I would start looking there.

Edited January 31, 2014 by sparky Paul

[julian95]

There are so many reasons why a petrol engine may misfire, including low compression, ignition timing, valve timing, fuel pressure, injector timing, etc., etc., it can be difficult to diagnose accurately without actually doing the tests required. The coil pack issue is a common one, so worth checking out.

 

Is the engine fault light (MIL) on?

 

P0301 is a cylinder 1 misfire, if you sure this is the only trouble code raised, then I would start looking there.

Ok and Yes the MIL is on, I got a P0301 and P0501.

[julian95]

Just taken out the air filter to find some duck tape wedged in the air intake pipe :/ I might see if that was the problem. Do you think it would be safe enough to try the engine bearing in mind the coil pack may need replacing?

[julian95]

Here is a Youtube video of the car Cranking but no start, with a very interesting light show :S

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJd029FmajU

[insanitybeard]

Just taken out the air filter to find some duck tape wedged in the air intake pipe :/ I might see if that was the problem. Do you think it would be safe enough to try the engine bearing in mind the coil pack may need replacing?

 

Unless the tape was substantially reducing airflow into the engine I don't see how it could cause this problem. Have you tried it since removing the tape?