Diagram For Water Senses

[dave030445]

hi all is there such a thing as a diagram of all the water senses /switches and relays so i can try to get to the bottom of this problem cause at the moment hoses keep bursting as its getting so hot (one burst and covered the mot inspector in coolent not a happy chap) please help

[Jayton]

I can have a look on my Ford maintenance / Systems DVD manual when I get home...

[seatkid]

hi all is there such a thing as a diagram of all the water senses /switches and relays so i can try to get to the bottom of this problem cause at the moment hoses keep bursting as its getting so hot (one burst and covered the mot inspector in coolent not a happy chap) please help

 

YOu have a serious problem - maybe a blocked radiator, but more likely a failed head gasket/cracked cylinder head.

 

Pipes should never burst - the coolant cap will vent first.

Edited January 27, 2010 by seatkid

[dave030445]

I can have a look on my Ford maintenance / Systems DVD manual when I get home...

thanks jayton that would be really helpfull

[dave030445]

hi all is there such a thing as a diagram of all the water senses /switches and relays so i can try to get to the bottom of this problem cause at the moment hoses keep bursting as its getting so hot (one burst and covered the mot inspector in coolent not a happy chap) please help

 

YOu have a serious problem - maybe a blocked radiator, but more likely a failed head gasket/cracked cylinder head.

 

Pipes should never burst - the coolant cap will vent first.

oh s--t dont say that its a new rad only a few days old there is no sign of water in the oil or the other way round

[Willie Krashitt]

Other things worth checking: Thermostat stuck shut? (had a Sierra V6 burst a heater hose on the M6 when this happened) Inlet hose from rad to water pump delaminated inside and sucking shut? (my Mk2 Golf did this) Is /has the car been chipped for more power? (very common cause of cracked heads/head gasket failure - no oil in water or no water in oil does not mean that the failure isn't here. A 'sniff test' or water analysis will detect if signs of combustion gas are in the coolant. )

 

I agree with SK - the pressure cap should have vented long before a hose got to bursting point unless the hose was damaged beforehand. What temperature did the gauge go up to?

 

George.

[dave030445]

Other things worth checking: Thermostat stuck shut? (had a Sierra V6 burst a heater hose on the M6 when this happened) Inlet hose from rad to water pump delaminated inside and sucking shut? (my Mk2 Golf did this) Is /has the car been chipped for more power? (very common cause of cracked heads/head gasket failure - no oil in water or no water in oil does not mean that the failure isn't here. A 'sniff test' or water analysis will detect if signs of combustion gas are in the coolant. )

 

I agree with SK - the pressure cap should have vented long before a hose got to bursting point unless the hose was damaged beforehand. What temperature did the gauge go up to?

 

George.

as ive said in other post can get speeds 1/2 working on the cooling fan for the radiator so the temp just before it goes into the red fan speed 3 come on and pulls the temp back to just over half this only happens when sitting in traffic when driving the temp gauge sits about half way am i right in thinking that this engine has 3 fan speeds can any body tell me for sure when driving we get a really hot heater (lovely in this weather) does this mean that the thermostat is working???

please help as wife is shall we say get a little fed up

cheers dave

Edited January 28, 2010 by dave030445

[dave030445]

Other things worth checking: Thermostat stuck shut? (had a Sierra V6 burst a heater hose on the M6 when this happened) Inlet hose from rad to water pump delaminated inside and sucking shut? (my Mk2 Golf did this) Is /has the car been chipped for more power? (very common cause of cracked heads/head gasket failure - no oil in water or no water in oil does not mean that the failure isn't here. A 'sniff test' or water analysis will detect if signs of combustion gas are in the coolant. )

 

I agree with SK - the pressure cap should have vented long before a hose got to bursting point unless the hose was damaged beforehand. What temperature did the gauge go up to?

 

George.

as ive said in other post can't get speeds 1/2 working on the cooling fan for the radiator so the temp just before it goes into the red fan speed 3 come on and pulls the temp back to just over half this only happens when sitting in traffic when driving the temp gauge sits about half way am i right in thinking that this engine has 3 fan speeds can any body tell me for sure when driving we get a really hot heater (lovely in this weather) does this mean that the thermostat is working???

please help as wife is shall we say get a little fed up

cheers dave

[sepulchrave]

Ok, time out, lets slow down and gather our senses :D

 

First point, chipping does NOT affect a petrol engine in the same way as a diesel mr krashitt, FYI chipped N/A petrol engines actually run cooler due to running a richer mixture.

 

Secondly, OP how many hoses have you blown? Hoses can be severely weakened by coming into contact with oil and other solvents, hoses are often badly damaged when the oil/water intercooler fails, could this have happened in your cars past?

 

I've stated before that VR6 cylinder heads are extremely difficult to crack or warp, that doesn't rule it out but you'd really need to cook it up badly for this to be a possiblity, a blown head gasket or cracked head leading to cylinder pressure loss into the water jacket would definitely cause a noticeable misfire, particularly on tickover and as SK says the tank safety cap would definitely blow boiling coolant everywhere.

 

The readings on your temperature gauge sound entirely normal, the responses of your electric cooling fans are completely normal, you have good cabin heat and the car warms up normally and drives normally, you have no unexplained coolant loss or steam from under the bonnet.

 

The VR6 engine DOES run hot, it is designed that way and is completely happy doing so.

 

My diagnosis is that your car is behaving normally other than that you have some rotten/damaged hoses which need replacing.

 

Silly oil burner hysterics, take your pills and have a little lie down chaps. :D

[Willie Krashitt]

Sephulcrave,

 

Whilst I totally agree that overfuelling a petrol engine would make it run cooler, many chipping companies also advance the ignition timing substantially, which in turn subastantially increases the peak cylinder pressure. Even if the engine is not running into detonation, let alone pre ignition, this increases the chances of head/head gasket failure as the parts are having to deal with loadings that they are not designed to. Too many of these companies rely on the fact that the customer will rarely subject their car to sustained runs at full power , just a boot it in 2nd and 3rd type of driver, and the thermal stress can be lower for a few seconds due to the thermal lag in the piston/block/head. This is a completely different situation to that experienced by those pulling a caravan over the Alps or driving at max speed on an autobahn when the extra stress starts to show, and it doesn't matter if it is a petrol or diesel engine.

 

My job is , and has been for over 30 years, the development and calibration of car engines, and I speak from experience with both petrol and diesel engines, normally aspirated and turbo.

 

BTW, where has the original poster stated what engine he has?

 

You are totally right that VR6's run hot, as all modern engines are designed to. Hot engines give better fuel economy, lower emissions and will last longer. Too many people in this country panic when the temp needle gets above 1/2 way, thinking something is wrong. Interestingly, many German customers will complain that the engine is running too cold if the needle doesn't go beyond 1/2 way!

 

George.

[dave030445]

Sephulcrave,

 

Whilst I totally agree that overfuelling a petrol engine would make it run cooler, many chipping companies also advance the ignition timing substantially, which in turn subastantially increases the peak cylinder pressure. Even if the engine is not running into detonation, let alone pre ignition, this increases the chances of head/head gasket failure as the parts are having to deal with loadings that they are not designed to. Too many of these companies rely on the fact that the customer will rarely subject their car to sustained runs at full power , just a boot it in 2nd and 3rd type of driver, and the thermal stress can be lower for a few seconds due to the thermal lag in the piston/block/head. This is a completely different situation to that experienced by those pulling a caravan over the Alps or driving at max speed on an autobahn when the extra stress starts to show, and it doesn't matter if it is a petrol or diesel engine.

 

My job is , and has been for over 30 years, the development and calibration of car engines, and I speak from experience with both petrol and diesel engines, normally aspirated and turbo.

 

BTW, where has the original poster stated what engine he has?

 

You are totally right that VR6's run hot, as all modern engines are designed to. Hot engines give better fuel economy, lower emissions and will last longer. Too many people in this country panic when the temp needle gets above 1/2 way, thinking something is wrong. Interestingly, many German customers will complain that the engine is running too cold if the needle doesn't go beyond 1/2 way!

 

George.

yes we have had a 2nd hand engine put in cause the head gasket went on ours so quite possible that the hoses have some oil contamination all though i under stand that these engines run hot i don't agree that the gauge should just go in the red before the fans cut in can someone please tell me if there are 3 speeds on the fan i think speeds 1/2 are not working would a vag com lead help with this problem and no the car has not been chipped

cheer Dave

[sepulchrave]

Sorry but all the contaminated hoses will need replacing because they'll all burst.

 

Oil fouled hoses feel soft and stretchy which is why they split, if all yours are damaged it will be cheaper for you to fit a set of performance silicon hoses than buy all new ones at dealer prices.

 

As I previously stated the fans are working fine, they're either on or they're off.

 

The fans will not cut in until the gauge is at about 3/4 deflection or touching the redline, if yours are coming on late then the thermoswitch may need replacing or the connections cleaning.

 

You may not agree but I'm telling you there is nothing else wrong with your car, I know I've got one too, so please calm down.

 

George, you cannot over advance the ignition due to the two knock sensors fitted to the VR lump, most remaps simply reprogram the fuelling away from lean burn/stoich where the map has been strangled for emissions/economy, factory ECU settings already run as much advance as possible for these very reasons. This is why the VR has a higher torque rating when running 99 octane fuel, the ECU is able to run more advance before the knock sensors say stop.

 

BTW, OP mentions engine type here:

 

http://www.fordgalaxy.org.uk/ford/index.php?showtopic=19842 :D

[dave030445]

Sorry but all the contaminated hoses will need replacing because they'll all burst.

 

Oil fouled hoses feel soft and stretchy which is why they split, if all yours are damaged it will be cheaper for you to fit a set of performance silicon hoses than buy all new ones at dealer prices.

 

As I previously stated the fans are working fine, they're either on or they're off.

 

The fans will not cut in until the gauge is at about 3/4 deflection or touching the redline, if yours are coming on late then the thermoswitch may need replacing or the connections cleaning.

 

You may not agree but I'm telling you there is nothing else wrong with your car, I know I've got one too, so please calm down.

 

George, you cannot over advance the ignition due to the two knock sensors fitted to the VR lump, most remaps simply reprogram the fuelling away from lean burn/stoich where the map has been strangled for emissions/economy, factory ECU settings already run as much advance as possible for these very reasons. This is why the VR has a higher torque rating when running 99 octane fuel, the ECU is able to run more advance before the knock sensors say stop.

 

BTW, OP mentions engine type here:

 

http://www.fordgalaxy.org.uk/ford/index.php?showtopic=19842 :o

sorry to keep on so are you saying that there is just one speed for the fans on a 2.8v6 engine also whee is this thermoswitch found so i can clean check connections

[sepulchrave]

Thermoswitch is on the N/S rear of the radiator it will have been screwed into the new radiator which you say was fitted recently.

 

Yes, the engine fans have only one speed and I believe only one will come on unless the aircon is on as well but I may be mistaken.

 

You can simply check the operation of the fan(s) by connecting the two leads which run to the thermoswitch together.

 

If the aircon is set to chill the air then both radiator fans should run constantly irrespective of engine temperature.

[dave030445]

Thermoswitch is on the N/S rear of the radiator it will have been screwed into the new radiator which you say was fitted recently.

 

Yes, the engine fans have only one speed and I believe only one will come on unless the aircon is on as well but I may be mistaken.

 

You can simply check the operation of the fan(s) by connecting the two leads which run to the thermoswitch together.

 

If the aircon is set to chill the air then both radiator fans should run constantly irrespective of engine temperature.

yes the garage put a new switch in the rad when they fitted it both fans work on temp what are all the cooling fan relays for then if its only got 1 speed i was told that there were 3 speeds the senser in the rad which has three wire 1 common 1 wire for speed 1 and the other for speed 2 and the brown plug in the thermostat houseing does sppeds 3 but need to confirm this

cheers dave

Edited February 7, 2010 by dave030445

[sepulchrave]

Errr, what year is your car please, is it a 95-00 MkI or a 00-05 MkII and is it auto or manual?

 

I thought the fan relays were simply for switching. maybe that your thermoswitch is a two stage switch and will switch fan one first and then fan two as well.

 

I know that there are three temperature sensors on the thermostat housing on 95-00 cars, one for the temperature gauge (2-wire, possibly yellow), the blue one for the ECU and one for the aircon fan control I mentioned earlier (brown maybe?).

 

Why are you asking for help if you have all the answers dude?

 

I'm trying to help, you're just not listening and arguing with just about everything I try and tell you.

 

I give up.

 

Listen to the diesel catastrophists, change the engine, burn the bloody thing in the street outside your house if you like, I'm past caring. :25:

[dave030445]

Errr, what year is your car please, is it a 95-00 MkI or a 00-05 MkII and is it auto or manual?

 

I thought the fan relays were simply for switching. maybe that your thermoswitch is a two stage switch and will switch fan one first and then fan two as well.

 

I know that there are three temperature sensors on the thermostat housing on 95-00 cars, one for the temperature gauge (2-wire, possibly yellow), the blue one for the ECU and one for the aircon fan control I mentioned earlier (brown maybe?).

 

Why are you asking for help if you have all the answers dude?

 

I'm trying to help, you're just not listening and arguing with just about everything I try and tell you.

 

I give up.

 

Listen to the diesel catastrophists, change the engine, burn the bloody thing in the street outside your house if you like, I'm past caring. :25:

thats fine by me as you are talking a load of rubbish i need to talk to someone who knows what there talking about whats the saying talk to the mechanic not the oily rag your trying to tell me things and you dont even know what year car ive got

Edited February 7, 2010 by dave030445

[sepulchrave]

[dave030445]

um thats about right i would expected no more

[dave030445]

um thats about right i would expected no more

takes a muppet to know a muppet

[gregers]

like most people here we offer advice to one another,whether you take it on board is down to you,

SEP has been here a while and has contributed to this forum with his expertise and knowledge.

all he has tried to do is offer his advice.

 

i would suggest that,in your eyes as no one has out of thin air sussed your problem,then take it back to the garage that has done all the work and let them try and sort it.

then you can post the results here so we can all know exactly what the problem was.

[mk2vr6]

first off have you changed the stat? if this fails to open! the engine will run hot and can blow hoses! but as you the temp drops when the fans cut in i dont think this the case the fans IIRC are two stage fans but I cant be arsed to go dig out all my tech info! if this is the case it sounds like you have lost the lower fans?

 

taken from the Corrado forum .... may not apply to the Galaxy but it will keep you busy :25:

 

The definitive VR6 cooling guide

by dinkus

[dave030445]

first off have you changed the stat? if this fails to open! the engine will run hot and can blow hoses! but as you the temp drops when the fans cut in i dont think this the case the fans IIRC are two stage fans but I cant be arsed to go dig out all my tech info! if this is the case it sounds like you have lost the lower fans?

 

taken from the Corrado forum .... may not apply to the Galaxy but it will keep you busy :25:

 

The definitive VR6 cooling guide

by dinkus