Another Tdi Starting Issue

[dlivadas]

Hi

 

Have a 1999 Mk1 TDI with 130k which has all of the sudden developed a cold starting problem.

 

One day it would start instantly (been like this for years) and the next day cranked for ages, eventually it coughed and spluttered for a few seconds and then started and a few seconds after that ran fine. The whole process created a huge cloud of white smoke (unburnt diesel I assume) while trying to start.

 

Glow plugs replaced and checked power coming through.

 

Where else do I look?

 

thanks

[marinabrid]

ours is just the same, been over and checked everything, no codes ever show, changed sensors, filters you name it. even new starter and battery. no difference.

i think its a qwuirk of these models.

ours always starts , sometimes straight up and sometimes after a good cranking, it seems to take a while if the car has just been started and run for a few seconds rather than gone out for a run.

[dlivadas]

ours is just the same, been over and checked everything, no codes ever show, changed sensors, filters you name it. even new starter and battery. no difference.

i think its a qwuirk of these models.

ours always starts , sometimes straight up and sometimes after a good cranking, it seems to take a while if the car has just been started and run for a few seconds rather than gone out for a run.

 

That doesn't sound good. What puzzles is that come on literally overnight. it used to start first time, every time and then all of the this happened. I've had someone put it on diagnostics but there were no error codes.

 

Really at a loss.

[mattkh]

Really at a loss.

Hi

Sounds like air bubbles in the diesel lines.

[marinabrid]

smeared every connection on ours with a silver grease recommended for rubber, just in case any air was entering via th efilter or poor joint, nothing changed,

[Scorpiorefugee]

Two quick thoughts which you may be well aware of...

 

Poor cold starting - how long does the glow plug light stay on. it should be several seconds in these temperatures. If it is just a quick flash, try disconnecting the coolant temperature sender and it should stay on for about 15 seconds.

 

If it is difficult to start when warm. Live with it 'cos I haven't seen a solution for that one yet.

[dlivadas]

We actually went so far as installing a push-button switch to activate the glow plug relay and I could then engage it for a good 10 seconds but it did not make a difference. I am inclined now to think it may be a sensor although none showed up on the diagnostics.

 

thankfully, I've never had a warm start problem at all. Not sure I could handle that happening as well :)

[seatkid]

Are you sure you fitted good glow plugs? The resistance is between 0.1 and 0.3 ohms when cold. You need a lot of grunt to press the busbar back on to the plugs - its very tight. Also, although the relay is operating, have you checked that 12 volts is actually being fed to the plugs - IIRC there is a large fuse somewhere in that feed.

 

Last few mornings I've noticed a brief bit of lumpiness when starting - I think one of my (original bosch) glow plugs has gone (I changed 2 about 4 years ago for NGK at

[Scorpiorefugee]

Following on from SeatKid I think he may well have a good point. The glow plugs are protected by a 60 or 75 amp fuse because they draw a very high current. Was you switch capable of handling this or was the current much less because the plugs were shot? It might be worth trying it with the fan on full and it should slow noticably when you switch on because of the heavy current drain. These engines seem to start after 5 - 10 seconds without glow plugs even at -5.

[f0ster]

you can eliminate fuel running back by clamping shut the fuel feed and return hoses with pipe clamps or vice grips,

(get it running ok first)leave it over night like this, remove the clamps and see how it starts,

[studsmassive]

one of my mates had this problem on his galaxy and it turned out to be wood draft key on diesel pump although the aa just kept putting cold start into air box which did not sound good .

[seatkid]

one of my mates had this problem on his galaxy and it turned out to be wood draft key on diesel pump although the aa just kept putting cold start into air box which did not sound good .

 

Its called a Woodruff key.

[richardman101]

Are you sure you fitted good glow plugs? The resistance is between 0.1 and 0.3 ohms when cold. You need a lot of grunt to press the busbar back on to the plugs - its very tight. Also, although the relay is operating, have you checked that 12 volts is actually being fed to the plugs - IIRC there is a large fuse somewhere in that feed.

 

Last few mornings I've noticed a brief bit of lumpiness when starting - I think one of my (original bosch) glow plugs has gone (I changed 2 about 4 years ago for NGK at

[studsmassive]

one of my mates had this problem on his galaxy and it turned out to be wood draft key on diesel pump although the aa just kept putting cold start into air box which did not sound good .

 

Its called a Woodruff key.

 

sorry my spelling is not very good

[Scorpiorefugee]

Lets stick with the glow plugs for the moment.

Reliability - Mine died of neglect at 230k and the glow plugs - original - were still fine.

I had the same problem soon after I got it - first winter - and the clue was the cooling fans always came on after switching the engine off because the temeperature sensor (faulty) was indicating hot engine and that is why, even on a cold morning, the glow plugs and lamp were never lit. Unplugging the sensor effects a temporary cure. It took me 2 days to work that out.

 

The electrics for all of this, including the fuse and a meaty relay I think, are all at the back of the fuse board by the driver's right knee and can take a while to get to.

 

If the glow plug light is coming on for a few seconds the control logic and sensors are probably fine leaving fuse, duff glow plugs, broken wire or the fault is somewhere else completely. bridging 12v directly to the glow plugs while someone else tries to start it is an option but be prepared for a bit of a splash cos it will take 50 amps or so and the wire may get a bit warm. Alternatively check for 12V on the plugs while the glow plug lamp is lit. Use a bulb rather than a digital meter cos by the time the meter has worked out what's happening it's all over and you can warm your hands on the bulb.

 

Finally, if the indicator lamp is lit and no voltage, get a circuit, have a stiff drink, wrap up warm, tell the missus you will be some time, disconnect the battery and start pulling the 3 level fuse panel to bits.

 

Why does it always happen when it's so bl00dy cold? :31:

My auxilliary heater has just gone temperamental and it can stay that way! :lol:

Edited December 23, 2009 by Scorpiorefugee

[richardman101]

Lets stick with the glow plugs for the moment.

Reliability - Mine died of neglect at 230k and the glow plugs - original - were still fine.

I had the same problem soon after I got it - first winter - and the clue was the cooling fans always came on after switching the engine off because the temeperature sensor (faulty) was indicating hot engine and that is why, even on a cold morning, the glow plugs and lamp were never lit. Unplugging the sensor effects a temporary cure. It took me 2 days to work that out.

 

The electrics for all of this, including the fuse and a meaty relay I think, are all at the back of the fuse board by the driver's right knee and can take a while to get to.

 

If the glow plug light is coming on for a few seconds the control logic and sensors are probably fine leaving fuse, duff glow plugs, broken wire or the fault is somewhere else completely. bridging 12v directly to the glow plugs while someone else tries to start it is an option but be prepared for a bit of a splash cos it will take 50 amps or so and the wire may get a bit warm. Alternatively check for 12V on the plugs while the glow plug lamp is lit. Use a bulb rather than a digital meter cos by the time the meter has worked out what's happening it's all over and you can warm your hands on the bulb.

 

Finally, if the indicator lamp is lit and no voltage, get a circuit, have a stiff drink, wrap up warm, tell the missus you will be some time, disconnect the battery and start pulling the 3 level fuse panel to bits.

 

Why does it always happen when it's so bl00dy cold? :31:

My auxilliary heater has just gone temperamental and it can stay that way! :lol:

thanks for your info scorpio, much appreciated.

have already covered most checking aspects you mentioned, and opened the fusebox spaghetti junction area to check the 2 relevant relays, which energised correctly, unfortunately the cold got to me by this point so i stuffed the whole lot back into the dash and gave up! rather stupid of me on reflection that i could have checked continuity of the major fuses at the back when i had it apart ;)

i will look into the fuses thing tomorrow if its better than minus 4 here by then! i read the haynes page wiring diagram and identified two possible fuse culprits though knowing my luck it will be something completely different to fuses, as we all know, its rarely that simple! sorry to hear about yr aux heater, i fixed mine 3 weeks ago after fitting a new eberspacher pump so at least when the car does start it warms up reasonably!! whats occuring with yours??

merry xmas :(

[Scorpiorefugee]

Hi,

If you're using the Haynes maual you could struggle cos I think that only covers the original 90bhp and the fuse panel on the 110s is completely different. I had to use the circuit from a TIS disc. I think the point is that you can eliminate the need to get involved with all of that by testing as I tried to describe which will prove which way to go next. If you haven't got a TIS disc, they are freely available but I had an old one dated '98 which covered mine while the more recent '04 didn't. From what you say you may well have a problem elsewhere.

 

My heater has been working virtually full time lately,staying on for long journeys but over the last few days it has failed to fire up and the gauge recently took 12 miles to move off the bottom and then fell back again before getting up to normal on the motorway. It The good bit is that the fuel economy has improved by a few MPG.

[richardman101]

Hi,

If you're using the Haynes maual you could struggle cos I think that only covers the original 90bhp and the fuse panel on the 110s is completely different. I had to use the circuit from a TIS disc. I think the point is that you can eliminate the need to get involved with all of that by testing as I tried to describe which will prove which way to go next. If you haven't got a TIS disc, they are freely available but I had an old one dated '98 which covered mine while the more recent '04 didn't. From what you say you may well have a problem elsewhere.

 

My heater has been working virtually full time lately,staying on for long journeys but over the last few days it has failed to fire up and the gauge recently took 12 miles to move off the bottom and then fell back again before getting up to normal on the motorway. It The good bit is that the fuel economy has improved by a few MPG.

thanks again for the advice - i have a tis disc somewhere amongst the pile of diagnostic cables and interfaces in the garage so will look at that first - at least i can stay in the warm to do that! ref your heater - have you tried replacing the sensor on the wiper linkages for a mini fuse in case the sensor is faulty? i'm sure you've heard of that temp fix but maybe worth a go as its easy! merry xmas.

rich.

[Scorpiorefugee]

Thanks, Merry Christmas and leave the problem 'til next year, it may get warmer. :lol:

 

Ron.

Edited December 24, 2009 by Scorpiorefugee

[dlivadas]

I have just had the repair shop come back to me and tell me that the diesel pump has failed and that it's going to cost around

[dlivadas]

Also just found this thread which sounds a lot like my issue. I'm hoping the people at pbasher actually tested the pump and didn't just presume it was the cause.

 

I think I should ask the garage to check the crank pulley just in case.

[dlivadas]

this thread ;)

 

http://www.fordgalaxy.org.uk/ford/index.php?showtopic=13230

[dlivadas]

Hello all

 

Thought i would pass on a quick update.

 

i eventually bought a used diesel pump from the breakers and had it installed. It had to be recoded and once that was done my starting problem went away.

 

 

So the old Gal is running again but only after having cost me an arm and a leg first. The frustrating bit is that so much of the diagnostics seems to be quesswork and based on a feeling. Seems like most of the mechanics I have met connect a VAG and if there is no error code really struggle to diagnose systematically without having to strip and rebuild the engine in the process.

 

perhaps I'm being unfair bit i feel somewhat justified after the whole experience.

 

regards