Still Overheating Help

[jay01438]

i have a ford galaxy 1.9 tdi 2000 plate,i have had it for a few months and it keeps boiling water in the header tank and throwing it all out,now i have had it pressure tested twice and no problems with the head gasket or water pump,i ahave put a new cap on the header tank and still the same,so i took the thermostat out all together for 3 days and it run like a dream never lost a drop of water so today i put a new thermostat in flushed the system,new antifreeze and yes the water temp jumped to the red again after being on the motorway for about 10 miles,but this time the computer did say stop and check coolant which it would normally do,both fans work fine has anyone got any ideas as i am stuck i would drive it of a cliff but i dont live near any and it would overheat if i drove to cornwall ,please help

[Mirez]

i have a ford galaxy 1.9 tdi 2000 plate,i have had it for a few months and it keeps boiling water in the header tank and throwing it all out,now i have had it pressure tested twice and no problems with the head gasket or water pump,i ahave put a new cap on the header tank and still the same,so i took the thermostat out all together for 3 days and it run like a dream never lost a drop of water so today i put a new thermostat in flushed the system,new antifreeze and yes the water temp jumped to the red again after being on the motorway for about 10 miles,but this time the computer did say stop and check coolant which it would normally do,both fans work fine has anyone got any ideas as i am stuck i would drive it of a cliff but i dont live near any and it would overheat if i drove to cornwall ,please help

 

How do you know there are no problems with the water pump?

[marinabrid]

i think there is a problem with some water pumps on these, the impeller comes off inside, the fact that its fine when there is no problem when there is no thermostat in is the clue.

the water wont get hot in these engines for a very long time as they are so effiecient.

does the rear heater get hot air from it ? the pump has to pump ot all the way to the back via the booster heater, is that working as well ?

 

if no hot air from rear heater then it sounds like water pump.

[jay01438]

i think there is a problem with some water pumps on these, the impeller comes off inside, the fact that its fine when there is no problem when there is no thermostat in is the clue.

the water wont get hot in these engines for a very long time as they are so effiecient.

does the rear heater get hot air from it ? the pump has to pump ot all the way to the back via the booster heater, is that working as well ?

 

if no hot air from rear heater then it sounds like water pump.

no rear heater works fine as well

[turk90210]

Well I think we can Safely say you have eliminated thermostat, cooling fans and pressure cap but in other posts we have advised you about other things before but there is no real confirmation mentioned as to why you say they are ok. namely water pump and head gasket

How were these tested can you describe the test/tests done, I mention this as if the tests were done properly then we need to look at other possibilities which will start to cost money. The symptoms you are describing are still classic poor circulation problems which usually start with the water pump. Forget the rear heater that marinabrid mentions (sorry marinabrid) as you will probably find an electric pump n/s of the bulkhead which helps to push water to the rear heater as the engine water pump is not that efficient/strong enough for that. Are ALL the cooling pipes radiator ect an equal temperature as I have just remembered that occasionally if the radiator is partially blocked this can cause poor circulation and o/heating. A little more info on the test you have had done patic re the water pump and head gasket would be appriciated

[big blue]

Hi Jay01438,

I have a 2000 plate diesel with a overheating/pressure problems.

I am not shure that turk90210 has given you the correct advice as i cannot find a second electric water pump - i think this was fitted to later models - (but i will stand corrected if i find one).

 

If the rear heater pipes (the 2 ali pipes under the car passenger side) start to get hot when you start the car then the water is getting round all the pipes as it should at that time.

 

When the water has reached the correct temperature then the thermostat will open up and let water flow through the radiator - cooling the engine.

 

I know this sounds like i am taking the p*ss but did you :-

 

1.. check that the thermostat worked before you fitted it?.

2.. fitted the thermostat the correct way round (someone else on this site has had one fitted the wrong way round).

3.. check that the water pump impella was made of metal - not plastic ( i know mine was plastic).

4.. check that the radiator is not blocked - so the water cannot flow through all of it.

5.. check the the air can flow through the radiator.

6.. that the pressure test performed was for a diesel engine - not a petrol one (was it done when the engine was hot (there can be micro fractures that open up when the engine is hot).

 

i know it sounds like i am taking the p*ss but these are the thing i have looked for and ruled out with my car.

 

Big Blue.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

[marinabrid]

could be a blockage somewhere, have you tried flushing it through or putting one of them rad clean products throuhg it, radweld do one called radflush, a two bottle affair that you pour in let it do its job then you add the other bottel to finish the job.

[jay01438]

Well I think we can Safely say you have eliminated thermostat, cooling fans and pressure cap but in other posts we have advised you about other things before but there is no real confirmation mentioned as to why you say they are ok. namely water pump and head gasket

How were these tested can you describe the test/tests done, I mention this as if the tests were done properly then we need to look at other possibilities which will start to cost money. The symptoms you are describing are still classic poor circulation problems which usually start with the water pump. Forget the rear heater that marinabrid mentions (sorry marinabrid) as you will probably find an electric pump n/s of the bulkhead which helps to push water to the rear heater as the engine water pump is not that efficient/strong enough for that. Are ALL the cooling pipes radiator ect an equal temperature as I have just remembered that occasionally if the radiator is partially blocked this can cause poor circulation and o/heating. A little more info on the test you have had done patic re the water pump and head gasket would be appriciated

i had the system pressure tested at a local garage,took the cap of the exspansion tank and pumped air into the system and it sat on 2 bar for about twenty minutes and never budged,he also checked the flow of water coming in the top of the header tank and said it looks okay,but i have watched it myself and it aint a constant flow its a bit spitty,i put a new thermostat in the other day as well as flushing the system and new antifreeze but 10 miles up the motor way the temprature gauge shot to 3/4s,so i took the thermostat out again and used it yesterday to do 100 mile journey and it was okay,but near home it did start to creep up,any help would be much appreciated and have you any idea how much a pump is fitted cheers

[jay01438]

Hi Jay01438,

I have a 2000 plate diesel with a overheating/pressure problems.

I am not shure that turk90210 has given you the correct advice as i cannot find a second electric water pump - i think this was fitted to later models - (but i will stand corrected if i find one).

 

If the rear heater pipes (the 2 ali pipes under the car passenger side) start to get hot when you start the car then the water is getting round all the pipes as it should at that time.

 

When the water has reached the correct temperature then the thermostat will open up and let water flow through the radiator - cooling the engine.

 

I know this sounds like i am taking the p*ss but did you :-

 

1.. check that the thermostat worked before you fitted it?.

2.. fitted the thermostat the correct way round (someone else on this site has had one fitted the wrong way round).

3.. check that the water pump impella was made of metal - not plastic ( i know mine was plastic).

4.. check that the radiator is not blocked - so the water cannot flow through all of it.

5.. check the the air can flow through the radiator.

6.. that the pressure test performed was for a diesel engine - not a petrol one (was it done when the engine was hot (there can be micro fractures that open up when the engine is hot).

 

i know it sounds like i am taking the p*ss but these are the thing i have looked for and ruled out with my car.

 

Big Blue.

 

yes mate i checked the thermostat before i put it in ,flushed the whole system out but did notice that the water that comes in the top of the header tank isnt a constant flow it spits a bit ,how hard is it to take the water pump out

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

[jay01438]

Hi Jay01438,

I have a 2000 plate diesel with a overheating/pressure problems.

I am not shure that turk90210 has given you the correct advice as i cannot find a second electric water pump - i think this was fitted to later models - (but i will stand corrected if i find one).

 

If the rear heater pipes (the 2 ali pipes under the car passenger side) start to get hot when you start the car then the water is getting round all the pipes as it should at that time.

 

When the water has reached the correct temperature then the thermostat will open up and let water flow through the radiator - cooling the engine.

 

I know this sounds like i am taking the p*ss but did you :-

 

1.. check that the thermostat worked before you fitted it?.

2.. fitted the thermostat the correct way round (someone else on this site has had one fitted the wrong way round).

3.. check that the water pump impella was made of metal - not plastic ( i know mine was plastic).

4.. check that the radiator is not blocked - so the water cannot flow through all of it.

5.. check the the air can flow through the radiator.

6.. that the pressure test performed was for a diesel engine - not a petrol one (was it done when the engine was hot (there can be micro fractures that open up when the engine is hot).

 

i know it sounds like i am taking the p*ss but these are the thing i have looked for and ruled out with my car.

 

Big Blue.

 

yes mate i checked the thermostat before i put it in ,flushed the whole system out but did notice that the water that comes in the top of the header tank isnt a constant flow it spits a bit ,how hard is it to take the water pump out,and the pressure test was done hot as i drove the car to the garage and it was done straight away.

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

[jay01438]

could be a blockage somewhere, have you tried flushing it through or putting one of them rad clean products throuhg it, radweld do one called radflush, a two bottle affair that you pour in let it do its job then you add the other bottel to finish the job.

yes mate used radfush,new antifreeze

[marinabrid]

is the car actually overheating or could the gauge be telling lies ? how about changing the sensor that feed it and the ecu its located on the pipe that come from the cylinder head middle front of the engine usually has 4 wires on it, just a suggestion to see if its the gauge.

[marinabrid]

anoter thought, our old tdi a 90hp on a 97 year had the same thing, it ran hot one time cos of an oil leak and the gauge went to the red. for all the years we had it the gauge always read in the middle. after the short of oil thing, it always ran at 3/4 up the gauge showing much hotter than befroe however the car never actually overheated or used water or oil again for a long time. something had happened to something but we never found out what.

[seatkid]

For crying out loud......change the water pump :rolleyes:

<Opinion of rocket scientist>

[big blue]

I ordered from EBAY just the water pump, but got sent the entire water pump assembly.

While i was fixing the thermostat i decided (because of what looked like a botched / crap previous repair) to replace the entire pump assembly as this looked easier than trying to get the face plate + pump off.

 

 

Because i had to keep going out to buy the correct tool to take the next part off (4 trips out in total) it took about 10 hours to get off and back on againe.

 

The overflow pipe into the header tank also spurts (like yours) thats one of the reasons i think my head gasket has gone.

 

To be honest the head pressure test sounds a bit odd.

If you put 2bar into the header tank this would only be about 30psi this dose not sound like a lot of pressure (this sounds more like a coolant leak test).

 

 

Diesels work at a much higher pressure ( 19bar )- looking at machine mart they do a diesel pressure tester that you put in place of the injector and this measures the compression on the piston this works upto 1000psi (almost 70 bar).

 

Pushing hot gas through a small hole in the gasket is a lot easier that trying to push water through a small hole.

 

If i were you i would try and get a compression test done to rule out the head gasket.

 

I can let you know what tools i used and what parts i took off and in what order if you want.

 

Big Blue

[f0ster]

hello

what you are trying to diagnose is very difficult, your car will either be, overheating and then blowing out the water

or blowing out the water then overheating, the first one is blocked rad or possible some of the faults already mentioned by others, the second is gasket failure, it sounds like your car is pressurising, caused by a head gasket or a cracked head, if it is building up pressure in the cooling system from a head gasket then the pressure will rise very quickly, the pressure in the cooling system rises because of the water heating up and expanding, what you have to find out, is it building up quicker than normal, it is much easier with a pressure gauge on the header tank, you can then give it a good rev and watch the gauge, release the pressure and try again, if the head or gasket has gone you will get a quick build up of pressure, usually within a few seconds, on other vehicles you can see a constant stream of bubbles comming out of the top of the radiator because of gasker failure, on these engines this is not possible because of the bleed pipe comming from the top hose to the top of the header tank, one thing, if your can has lived its life in a hard water area the rad could be blocked with lime scale, I have seen engines wrecked because of this, the temp just keeps on rising, and after all who watches their gauge constantly,

[turk90210]

well the pressure test sounds ok, you basically need to pressurize it like you did and run the engine if the h/gasket had gone you should see an increase in pressure but as yours stayed constant the gasket is testing ok. As a general rule most systems dont run more that 5-7 lbs pressure,it might get to 7lbs then the fan should cut in and the pressure and temp should drop slightly then when the fan cuts out the pressure increases again and this is a constant cycle. The systems can take more pressure but if you look at the pressure cap the majority blow off around 12-15lbs pressure (ie pressure relief valve)

The waterpump test gets a massive thumbs down though, that is not the way to test the pump. When you have the system pressurized with a tester you need to watch your gauge and rev the engine, if the pump is ok you should see the needle drop then rise back up again, but this is only a guide. I have personal experience of all these test showing ok on an old astra that was doing the same as yours but experience told me poor circulation and as all the pipes were a similar temp I took the pump out to find it had a crack on the metal impellor, worked fine when cold but as it got warm the impellor became looser and didn't push the water round properly

So were back to the water pump again that needs testing properly or bite the bullet and get it changed

[big blue]

well the pressure test sounds ok, you basically need to pressurize it like you did and run the engine if the h/gasket had gone you should see an increase in pressure but as yours stayed constant the gasket is testing ok. As a general rule most systems dont run more that 5-7 lbs pressure,it might get to 7lbs then the fan should cut in and the pressure and temp should drop slightly then when the fan cuts out the pressure increases again and this is a constant cycle. The systems can take more pressure but if you look at the pressure cap the majority blow off around 12-15lbs pressure (ie pressure relief valve)

The waterpump test gets a massive thumbs down though, that is not the way to test the pump. When you have the system pressurized with a tester you need to watch your gauge and rev the engine, if the pump is ok you should see the needle drop then rise back up again, but this is only a guide. I have personal experience of all these test showing ok on an old astra that was doing the same as yours but experience told me poor circulation and as all the pipes were a similar temp I took the pump out to find it had a crack on the metal impellor, worked fine when cold but as it got warm the impellor became looser and didn't push the water round properly

So were back to the water pump again that needs testing properly or bite the bullet and get it changed

 

 

Hi turk90210

 

Jay01438 did not say if the engine was running or not when the 'pressure test was done' - it could still be the gasket!!.

 

i know everybody wants to give the best advice - and to be honest changing the waterpump is a safer option than trying to replacing the head gasket.

 

 

Big blue.

[jay01438]

I ordered from EBAY just the water pump, but got sent the entire water pump assembly.

While i was fixing the thermostat i decided (because of what looked like a botched / crap previous repair) to replace the entire pump assembly as this looked easier than trying to get the face plate + pump off.

 

 

Because i had to keep going out to buy the correct tool to take the next part off (4 trips out in total) it took about 10 hours to get off and back on againe.

 

The overflow pipe into the header tank also spurts (like yours) thats one of the reasons i think my head gasket has gone.

 

To be honest the head pressure test sounds a bit odd.

If you put 2bar into the header tank this would only be about 30psi this dose not sound like a lot of pressure (this sounds more like a coolant leak test).

 

 

Diesels work at a much higher pressure ( 19bar )- looking at machine mart they do a diesel pressure tester that you put in place of the injector and this measures the compression on the piston this works upto 1000psi (almost 70 bar).

 

Pushing hot gas through a small hole in the gasket is a lot easier that trying to push water through a small hole.

 

If i were you i would try and get a compression test done to rule out the head gasket.

 

I can let you know what tools i used and what parts i took off and in what order if you want.

 

Big Blue

i have just been looking at the bills i got with the car and it has had the water pump done as well as a new thermostat about a year ago as well as a pressure test done it seems like it has had a ongoing problem and the pump has had the metal upgrade.

[jay01438]

well the pressure test sounds ok, you basically need to pressurize it like you did and run the engine if the h/gasket had gone you should see an increase in pressure but as yours stayed constant the gasket is testing ok. As a general rule most systems dont run more that 5-7 lbs pressure,it might get to 7lbs then the fan should cut in and the pressure and temp should drop slightly then when the fan cuts out the pressure increases again and this is a constant cycle. The systems can take more pressure but if you look at the pressure cap the majority blow off around 12-15lbs pressure (ie pressure relief valve)

The waterpump test gets a massive thumbs down though, that is not the way to test the pump. When you have the system pressurized with a tester you need to watch your gauge and rev the engine, if the pump is ok you should see the needle drop then rise back up again, but this is only a guide. I have personal experience of all these test showing ok on an old astra that was doing the same as yours but experience told me poor circulation and as all the pipes were a similar temp I took the pump out to find it had a crack on the metal impellor, worked fine when cold but as it got warm the impellor became looser and didn't push the water round properly

So were back to the water pump again that needs testing properly or bite the bullet and get it changed

 

 

Hi turk90210

 

Jay01438 did not say if the engine was running or not when the 'pressure test was done' - it could still be the gasket!!.

 

i know everybody wants to give the best advice - and to be honest changing the waterpump is a safer option than trying to replacing the head gasket.

 

 

Big blue.

yes mate the pressure test was done hot thats the second test done now by 2 different garages at the moment im running it with no stat and i done a 100 mile journey the other day and it was okay until i was about 5 mile from home and the temprature gauge crept up to 3/4 but then it dropped back down to half but when i put the new stat it i got about 10 miles up the road and it shot straight into the red,i have a bill here from the previous owner who had the new metal impeller fitted and a new stat a year ago surely it wouldnt go again that quick

[jay01438]

hello

what you are trying to diagnose is very difficult, your car will either be, overheating and then blowing out the water

or blowing out the water then overheating, the first one is blocked rad or possible some of the faults already mentioned by others, the second is gasket failure, it sounds like your car is pressurising, caused by a head gasket or a cracked head, if it is building up pressure in the cooling system from a head gasket then the pressure will rise very quickly, the pressure in the cooling system rises because of the water heating up and expanding, what you have to find out, is it building up quicker than normal, it is much easier with a pressure gauge on the header tank, you can then give it a good rev and watch the gauge, release the pressure and try again, if the head or gasket has gone you will get a quick build up of pressure, usually within a few seconds, on other vehicles you can see a constant stream of bubbles comming out of the top of the radiator because of gasker failure, on these engines this is not possible because of the bleed pipe comming from the top hose to the top of the header tank, one thing, if your can has lived its life in a hard water area the rad could be blocked with lime scale, I have seen engines wrecked because of this, the temp just keeps on rising, and after all who watches their gauge constantly,

its driving me mad i took it for a 100 mile journey the other day and it was okay til i got about 5 miles from home and the gauge went up to 3/4 but dropped down when the fans cut in but i am running it with no stat as i put a new one in the other day and only got about 10 miles up the road and it went straight to red,its had 2 pressure tests done by 2 different garages and it has also had a new stat and metal impeller last year but it aint overheating if i drive around town all day ,check the water and you can see round the battery tray that it is wet obviously throwing the water out the exspansion bottle,if i check it i need to top it up with about 2 pints of water

[turk90210]

Big Blue

Well spotted I misread the post so it looks like its back to the begining, also alarm bells rang after reading it again Jay01438 mentions it sat at 2 bar for 20 mins, thats almost twice the blow off pressure of the pressure cap, Im suprised a water seal didn't go bang ! The cap blows off around 1.2-1.3bar ( about 20lbs pressure)

 

Jay01438

please confirm for us if you have had the cooling system pressure tested while the engine was "running" as this will show if their is any internal combustion leaks into the cooling system (ie head gasket, egr cooler, cracked head,ect), it is also a way of testing the water pump. I still can't get my head round the fact you have taken it to 2 garages and they have not given you any idea of what the fault might be.

Its hard to give you a proper diagnosis unless the proper tests have been carried out and i mean properly

Everything you have posted so far including it running ok with the thermostat out still leads me to a poor circulation problem which the water pump is the most common culprit, I would for the moment not say h/gasket or head because usually whether the thermostat is in/out should not have a bearing on it, it should pressurize quickley if it was the head/gasket. Having said that their are some exceptions

so I think the best way forward for you is to start at the begining, forget what we have all said it can be and get some accurate tests done on it and post back the results, if you have a cooling pressure tester I can tell you the correct sequence of tests to do which should tell you if the water pump is ok and give an indication if the head/gasket is leaking into the cooling system. There is also a sniffer test which can be done to indicate if there are any combustion gasses getting into the cooling system

Also while your at it can you confirm if this is the PD engine or the earlier one as my info indicates it could be either, not that it would have any bearing on the tests but it could on the prognosis

 

Turk

[big blue]

I have got to agree with turk90210 back to the start.

You have said that the thermostat has been changed a year ago - and then you said no way could it be a year old, if they have not bothered fitting a new