Battery Charging Problem

[Binary Man]

Hi,

 

I hope someone can help me out. I've searched through previous postings and haven't been able to find a problem that's exactly like mine. So here goes...

 

I seem to have a problem with the charging circuit on our 1998 Mark I Galaxy, 1.9 TDi. First problem was the car wouldn't start 4 days ago on Monday. Thought it was the battery because it seems to have been getting harder to start in the colder mornings for some weeks now. So I jumped it from a neighbour and bought a new battery, fitted it, and thought everything would be okay. Then we came to start it yesterday while we were out and there wasn't enough battery power to start it. It jump-started again okay (thanks to a kind person in the car park) and then on the way home we started losing electrics - indicators, lights etc. So we pulled over (it was dark) and, suddenly, while it was ticking over, everything kicked back into life again - so clearly the alternator just started working again. So it looks like there's an intermittent fault. Unfortunately we lost electrics again before we got home and ended up calling the RAC. The RAC topped up the battery for 20 mins - just enough for us to get home.

 

So I've spent the day today trying to disgnose the fault, but haven't manage to fix it. I found some similar postings - this one for example: http://www.fordgalaxy.org.uk/ford/index.ph...amp;#entry26736 - but none exactly like mine. Problem is, the Haynes manual (and the other postings I've found on this site) talk about first checking the charge warning light. This never comes on - not when the ignition is turned on, and not when the engine is running. (I can't say whether it does usually - I don't remember seeing it ever come on, my I could be mistaken there.) So I took out the instrument module to check the bulb but there isn't a bulb associated with the charge warning light. From the wiring diagrams in the back of the Haynes manual it looks like the charge warning light is in fact a LED, probably buried deep inside the instrument module. This seems to contradict the text of the Haynes manual which says it's a bulb.

 

I found this topic: http://www.fordgalaxy.org.uk/ford/index.ph...amp;hl=ind+wire with an excellent reply from turk90210 which also says to check the bulb - which I don't appear to have. So I thought I'd check the thin blue wire which connects onto the alternator and there's no voltage reading there at all - not when just the ignition is on, and not when the engine is running either. Could this be my problem? If so, I wonder how I can fix it? Does anyone have any ideas?

 

I checked out the voltage between the battery terminals and it was pretty low - under 12 V. Just about managed to start it though, and the battery is still showing less than 12 V, so clearly the alternator is not charging. Checked the alternator output directly too, and that was less than 12 V too. So I revved the engine to about 3000 rpm for a few seconds, and checked again. Wow! - the alternator seems to have sprung into life! I'm now reading 12.8 V across the battery terminals, and 14.3 V directly from the alternator to the -ve battery terminal. I read in a posting somewhere (might have been one of those above) that this behaviour has something to do with the thin blue wire, i.e. that there needs to be a voltage supplied down that wire for the alternator to get going initially - so that could be my problem.

 

One more thing: Does anyone know if the alternator output should be directly connected to the battery? From the wiring diagram it looks like it should be (via the starter motor), but I'm seeing a drop of 1.3-1.4 V from the alternator output to the battery +ve terminal, as if there's some sort of in-line resistance in the wiring. Anyone know if this is expected? Or do I have a faulty alternator output cable?

 

Thanks for reading, and any ideas will be greatly appreciated. I'm getting desperate! I could try a new alternator in case it's an intermittent fault with that, but at

[RADIOTWO]

Hi,

 

I hope someone can help me out. I've searched through previous postings and haven't been able to find a problem that's exactly like mine. So here goes...

 

I seem to have a problem with the charging circuit on our 1998 Mark I Galaxy, 1.9 TDi. First problem was the car wouldn't start 4 days ago on Monday. Thought it was the battery because it seems to have been getting harder to start in the colder mornings for some weeks now. So I jumped it from a neighbour and bought a new battery, fitted it, and thought everything would be okay. Then we came to start it yesterday while we were out and there wasn't enough battery power to start it. It jump-started again okay (thanks to a kind person in the car park) and then on the way home we started losing electrics - indicators, lights etc. So we pulled over (it was dark) and, suddenly, while it was ticking over, everything kicked back into life again - so clearly the alternator just started working again. So it looks like there's an intermittent fault. Unfortunately we lost electrics again before we got home and ended up calling the RAC. The RAC topped up the battery for 20 mins - just enough for us to get home.

 

So I've spent the day today trying to disgnose the fault, but haven't manage to fix it. I found some similar postings - this one for example: http://www.fordgalaxy.org.uk/ford/index.ph...amp;#entry26736 - but none exactly like mine. Problem is, the Haynes manual (and the other postings I've found on this site) talk about first checking the charge warning light. This never comes on - not when the ignition is turned on, and not when the engine is running. (I can't say whether it does usually - I don't remember seeing it ever come on, my I could be mistaken there.) So I took out the instrument module to check the bulb but there isn't a bulb associated with the charge warning light. From the wiring diagrams in the back of the Haynes manual it looks like the charge warning light is in fact a LED, probably buried deep inside the instrument module. This seems to contradict the text of the Haynes manual which says it's a bulb.

 

I found this topic: http://www.fordgalaxy.org.uk/ford/index.ph...amp;hl=ind+wire with an excellent reply from turk90210 which also says to check the bulb - which I don't appear to have. So I thought I'd check the thin blue wire which connects onto the alternator and there's no voltage reading there at all - not when just the ignition is on, and not when the engine is running either. Could this be my problem? If so, I wonder how I can fix it? Does anyone have any ideas?

 

I checked out the voltage between the battery terminals and it was pretty low - under 12 V. Just about managed to start it though, and the battery is still showing less than 12 V, so clearly the alternator is not charging. Checked the alternator output directly too, and that was less than 12 V too. So I revved the engine to about 3000 rpm for a few seconds, and checked again. Wow! - the alternator seems to have sprung into life! I'm now reading 12.8 V across the battery terminals, and 14.3 V directly from the alternator to the -ve battery terminal. I read in a posting somewhere (might have been one of those above) that this behaviour has something to do with the thin blue wire, i.e. that there needs to be a voltage supplied down that wire for the alternator to get going initially - so that could be my problem.

 

One more thing: Does anyone know if the alternator output should be directly connected to the battery? From the wiring diagram it looks like it should be (via the starter motor), but I'm seeing a drop of 1.3-1.4 V from the alternator output to the battery +ve terminal, as if there's some sort of in-line resistance in the wiring. Anyone know if this is expected? Or do I have a faulty alternator output cable?

 

Thanks for reading, and any ideas will be greatly appreciated. I'm getting desperate! I could try a new alternator in case it's an intermittent fault with that, but at

[seatkid]

I also think....

The brushes in the alternator need changing. Intermittent contact because one is almost at the end of its travel.

[Binary Man]

Hi Radiotwo and seatkid,

 

Thanks both of you for replying so quickly to this. I was awake most of the night thinking about what to do next.

 

First check all the connections: and when I say check I mean that the nuts are tight, and good connection with the cable::

Alternator main connection, battery connections, both + and - and also look under the car and look for a earth strap going from the chassis to the engine and sometimes to the gearbox.

The battery connections are good, and so are so is the alternator main connection. I've not checked for the earth strap yet - I'll do that later when it gets light.

 

Interestingly, there was corrosion around the alternator main connection nut yesterday. I scraped as much off as I could, but I still have a nagging feeling that maybe the main cable has broken somwhere inside: with the battery disconnected I see virtually no resistance between the alternator body and battery -ve terminal (as I would expect), but there appears to be a huge resistance between the alternator output connection and the battery +ve terminal. Is this normal? When the engine's running I see a 1.3-1.4V drop between the alternator output and battery +ve terminal. I wonder if this is okay?

 

The brushes in the alternator need changing. Intermittent contact because one is almost at the end of its travel.

Hmm, so you both think it looks like the brushes are at fault. I think I'd be able to strip it down okay myself, but I'd need to get hold of the brushes first - we don't have a second car and we're a bit stranded as soon as I start taking the alternator apart. So I need to be pretty sure this is the fault and have some replacements ready. Have you got any ideas on where I could get these quickly?

 

I've still got a nagging feeling (another one!) about there being no battery charge warning light at all - and whether this has anything to do with it. But without detailed wiring diagrams I can't go any further with that. Does anyone have charging circuit wiring diagrams from the TIS CD for a Galaxy Mark I 1.9 TDi they could add to this post?

 

Cheers,

 

Francis

[RADIOTWO]

Hi Again,

 

You mention the coroded wire, that is worth further checking out, and also there has been post on here about "fuse boxes" melting, (not sure of a wireing diagram) but check all connections around there as well.

 

But my gut feelings are still the carbon brushes, but where to get them nowadays, !

 

What make is the Alternator that is on ?

 

and where to get them !Example:http://www.directautoelectrical.co.uk/

 

You say you are in the North is the north America or north pole !

 

Radiotwo

Edited January 3, 2009 by RADIOTWO

[Binary Man]

Hi Radiotwo,

 

I reckon the main alternator wire is probably okay. I checked the resistance of the wire again and it was pretty low - tens of ohms - so I don't know what I did yesterday. I've checked all fuses and fuse boxes that I can find and all looks normal - no signs of melting or anything.

 

I've got the alternator off now: it's a Valeo VA365, dated May 2003 - so not that old; the car has done a high mileage though (250k). The Haynes manual says to check whether the slip rings are excessively worn; I've no idea whether they are or not - I don't know what I'm looking for. The brushes spring in and out of their housing okay. The visible part is 5mm and Haynes says this is the minimum brush length (except that would be for an original Bosch alternator), so maybe the brushes do need renewing?

 

(I'm in the North of England - Skipton, North Yorkshire area).

 

Francis

[Binary Man]

Hi again,

 

I did a search on Google images for worn slip rings and by the looks of it mine are well worn - deeply grooved. So it looks like I'm going to have to fork out for a new alternator after all (Haynes says it has to be renewed if the slip rings are excessively worn). Most places are shut now so I'll try to get hold of one early next week. Hopefully it will solve the problem. I'll let you know.

 

I made a quick call to Halfords and they can order 70 A, 90 A or 120 A variants - not sure what the one I took off is because there doesn't seem to be anything on it to indicate its current output. A quick search on the Internet for Valeo VA365 and it looks like a 90 A output, so I guess I should go for the 90 A model - unless you know any different? I could check with Ford on Monday I guess...

 

Cheers,

 

Francis

[seatkid]

Valeo is a rebuilt/refurbished alternator.

 

5mm sounds worn out, the brush carrier sits several mm above the ring so the brushes are at the limit of travel and thats why output is intermittent.

 

The new length is 16mm and at

[bj2004]

Valeo is a rebuilt/refurbished alternator.

 

5mm sounds worn out, the brush carrier sits several mm above the ring so the brushes are at the limit of travel and thats why output is intermittent.

 

The new length is 16mm and at

[RADIOTWO]

Hi again,

 

I did a search on Google images for worn slip rings and by the looks of it mine are well worn - deeply grooved. So it looks like I'm going to have to fork out for a new alternator after all (Haynes says it has to be renewed if the slip rings are excessively worn). Most places are shut now so I'll try to get hold of one early next week. Hopefully it will solve the problem. I'll let you know.

 

I made a quick call to Halfords and they can order 70 A, 90 A or 120 A variants - not sure what the one I took off is because there doesn't seem to be anything on it to indicate its current output. A quick search on the Internet for Valeo VA365 and it looks like a 90 A output, so I guess I should go for the 90 A model - unless you know any different? I could check with Ford on Monday I guess...

 

Cheers,

 

Francis

Hi Again

 

I would go with SK for that sort of price, and get the Brushes and see what happens, and also take off the poor cable and clean(or even replace with new)

 

just as matter of interest did you contact that place that does recon units?

 

but back to your other question, if it was me I would go for the 120 A one, just because I usually have a lot of extras on my cars, so the more power the better

just as amatter of interest what did Halfords quote for the three units?

 

Radiotwo

[Binary Man]

Hi all,

 

Thanks for all your replies. That link for the brushes, seatkid, looks just the job - at the price it's definitely worth a try. And I'll have another look at the cable too - see if I can clean it up, or else replace it with new as Radiotwo suggests. (Have to get this from Ford I guess.)

 

Once I have the new brushes, is it straightforward to fit them? The housing it plugs into has been sealed with some kind of rubber sealant. Here's a piccy (click to enlarge):

 

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/8185/p1030063lg3.th.jpg

 

I'm guessing I have to peal off the rubber sealant at the back of the brushes housing, and then push the brushes through out the back? Then solder the new brushes direct to the contacts there?

 

just as matter of interest did you contact that place that does recon units?

No, I didn't - I was just doing a quick search to see if I could figure out the current rating I needed to replace it.

 

just as amatter of interest what did Halfords quote for the three units?

 

70 A:

[seatkid]

That looks like an voltage regulator c/w brushes. I recomend you phone up Wood Autos and I'm sure some will advise you as what bits are the right ones.

 

This Valeo alternator - you can even get slip rings!

[turk90210]

Hi francis

Well where do I start!

The diagnosis you have done so far and the way you have described it is excellent so I will try and answer your questions in the order of your paragraphs

 

1- This is a classic example of the charging circuit not working properly, while driving you find wipers becoming slow or lights getting dimmer , even warning lights like abs , air bags ect illuminating basically because the battery power is weakening and the thing that keeps the battery topped up is the "Alternator"

 

2 and 3 - I'm afraid I cant confirm if you have a bulb or led ( older cars usually have a bulb though) but you should as mentioned check the battery warning light circuit first ( the alternator recieves battery volts via this bulb to excite the alternator into charging at low rev's) so if you have no warning light on the dash with the ignition on locate the wire at the alternator disconnect it and see if you have battery voltage with the ignition turned on if you have the circuit is ok, but you mention you have no voltage here so this indicates this is where the fault lies you wont have any voltage when the engine is running either until you rev it up and get the alternator to start charging then you should see voltage

This is also confirmed with your checks in paragraph 4 where you state voltage across the battery terminals was showing less than 12 volts until you revved the engine above 3000rpm then it jumped to 12.8 at the battery and 14.3 at the alternator terminal. so again this indicates a fault on the battery warning light circuit ( but possibly another unrelated faulty with the wiring back to the battery due to the voltage difference at the 2 places you have tested)

What should happened here is that the battery voltage from the thin blue wire to the alternator excites the alternator to charge at low rev's if this voltage is missing for whatever reason the alternator wont charge until you rev it up to 2000rpm or more then the alternator self excites itself then starts to charge and will continue to charge until you turn the ignition off when obviously the circuit is broken and the only way to get it to charge again at low rev's without the blue wire voltage is to rev it up again to over 2000rpm ( hope you understand that)

 

finally you mention if the battery and alternator are connected directly- simply put "no"

on the mk 1 gal if memory serves me correctly you will find ( if you follow the wiring) that the alternator main feed wire connects to the starter then from the starter to the battery

on the mk 2 gal it is connected to a maxi fuse in the fuse box next to the battery then from there to the battery ( I will of course accept to be corrected if anyone knows better)

 

Now if you have access to a multimeter you can connect one of your probes to the positive side of the battery and connect the other to the output connection of the alternator and measure the voltage (DC volts on the multimeter) if you see a reading of more than 0.5volts you have a poor connection/high resistance on that wire and need to trace back to where it jumps to being nearer equal to find the bad connection or if it stays more than 0.5 volts along the complete length of wire you could have a high resistance and might need to replace the complete length of wire ( but more on that if it is needed)this by the way is to check for the volts difference you mentioned when checking at the alternator and battery

 

So my conclusion from what you have said so far is that the problem lies in the battery warning light circuit and not the alternator so you would be wasting money on buying one at the moment until this fault is rectified or at the very least recheck this wiring

 

 

NB DO NOT TRY THIS IF UNSURE

I will accept no responsibility if you try this without knowing what you are doing as with all electronic devices on modern cars they can be very sensitive and if precautions are not taken you can damage them

 

A little bi-pass you could try ( but dont do this on any car until you have properly identified the way it is wired up and how the alternator is controlled as some are classed as smart charging which basically means that the exciter wire is controlled via the ecu) but should work without any problems on the galaxy is as follows

 

with a bulb type circuit tester (NOT LED ) place one end on the batt positive terminal or a constant live feed and with the other place it onto the battery warning light terminal on the alternator ( original wire disconnected) the bulb should light up, then start the engine and the bulb should go out and the alternator should start to charge if this works ok then it confirms that the alternator is ok and the fault again lies with the battery warning light circuit (a small watt bulb ie 1.2w should work aswell with wires if the relevant circuit tester is not available)

 

 

 

Hope this helps

Turk

[RADIOTWO]

HI Francis

 

Re the Cable, I would make one up my self(but can get all the stuff)but if there is a local auto electritions I would

as the to make one up, and ask the to solder the connections to get a good conection.

 

Re the next bit, I have enlarged the picture and it looks Burnt to me (the black bit on the picture) is that the case?

I have not seen any rubber over the soldered connection before, but yes unsolder the wire, but watch the spring

does not drop out.

 

If that bit is burnt (voltage regulator) then you would need one of them as well, so your

[turk90210]

Forgot to say try the trick re measuring the volts across the battery after you rev it up (higher than 2000rpm) to see if the alternator charges ok turn it off count to 20 then start it up again and re do the test, if the voltage rises every time then i again would say your alternator is ok and confirms the warning light circuit is at fault. This if proves ok gives you a bit of breathing space to get the fault rectified as all you need to do is make sure you rev the engine up every time you use the car to make sure the alternator is charging

[Binary Man]

Thanks for all your replies everyone - I really appreciate your help.

 

I've manage to find out a bit more today and have come to the conclusion that there were actually three things together that had gone wrong when I started out:

 

1. The thin blue wire that connects to the alternator, supplying it with 12 V at start-up and turning on the battery warning dash light. Today I found where the break was - right next to another connector near the starter motor. So that solves that mystery. Not sure whether I'm going to be able to make a satisfactory repair of this, but I'm not too worried about this because I think we can live without it. (Neither I nor my wife remember ever seeing the battery light before, so I reckon this has been broken since we've had the car.)

 

2. The alternator main cable connection wasn't properly connected to the starter motor bolt: the nut wasn't properly tight, so both the alternator main cable and the starter motor cable were flapping loose on the bolt. This would explain the voltage drop I was seeing between the alternator output and battery +ve terminal. The alternator main cable wire itself checks out fine.

 

3. The alternator brushes are worn, so alternator output was intermittent. I still think this is the case because on the way home last week (before we called the RAC), at one point the alternator was working fine, and then it stopped generating even though the ignition hadn't been switched off at all. This happened several times.

 

So, with all three things above wrong my original battery might have actually been okay (I replaced it last Monday when things started going wrong initially) and I may have saved myself

[seatkid]

Having found out the above, things have just got worse: I tried shifting the nut on the starter motor and the bolt sheered off!!! Aaarrrgghhh! So it looks like I'm going to have to fork out for a new starter motor now too, unless I can figure out some other way of attaching the alternator main cable and starter motor cables to the sheered bolt. Hmmm, not too hopeful. Any ideas anyone?

Wouldnt be surprised if the starter was changed along with the alternator and the loose cables and broken wire are the hallmarks of a hamfisted DIY repairer.

 

Wood Auto Supplies do all the bits for the starter motor (or this one). Note the solenoid at

[Binary Man]

I don't know how you do it seatkid - once again you've pointed me to exactly the thing I need. I searched on the Wood Auto website earlier myself for the starter bits and couldn't find them. I'm missing something somewhere...

 

I reckon I should be able to get away with just replacing the starter solenoid at

[Binary Man]

Hi everyone,

 

Finally got the Galaxy on the road again today - just in time for my return to work tomorrow.

 

Decided to go for a new replacement alternator in the end: I had another look at the slip rings on the one that came off and they're just so badly worn I wasn't convinced it was going to be okay just replacing the brushes. Also, I tried a local auto-spares place and they said they could get me a new one for

[gregers]

excellent result :rolleyes:

[Ivor_E_Tower]

Indeed, great result. The alternator charge problem seems similar to the issue that stranded me last week except that once mine had packed up, it took an overnight wait for it to surge back into life. Fingers crossed, after blowing the dust out of mine and squirting it with cleaner/lubricant, it has behaved itself. I have not yet found a price for a replacement alternator as low as Francis, I'm still looking at nearer