Oil Retention Valve

[maximus]

Hi All, Merry Christmas! and a happy new year!

 

Has anyone every replaced the 'oil retention valve' as listed in the Haynes Manual.

My 99 Galaxy TDI is noisey on cold starts, the oil light doesn't go out for about 5 seconds, in which time it gets quite noisey up top....

The Haynes manual says this is down to the oil retention valve, not stopping the oil draining back to the sump, and thus the tappets etc get starved of oil.

 

Well my local ford dealer doesn't know what it is and they've never heard of it..... Usual amount of help there then.

 

So any clues?

 

 

Cheers

Mark

[sepulchrave]

Sounds like rubbish to me, the only thing feeding oil to the tappets is the oil pump and guess where that gets its oil from - errr the sump.

 

Are you sure you're not getting some breather valve mixed up in this?

 

You don't mention mileage, but at a wild guess I'd say 150k plus, your engine is clearly very worn, five seconds is much too long for oil pressure to build up.

 

If it takes that time on tickover then you should rev it to about 1500 rpm on startup to get oil pressure more quickly.

[maximus]

Hi sepulchrave,

 

The point is that the oil drains from the top of the engine when the engine is stopped, therefore the top of the engine has to be re-primed every time the engine is cold. The idea is that the 'oil retention valve' stops the oil all draining from the top end and thus no re-priming.

 

Well thats the theory as far as I can figure out. It transpires that this valve is actually part of the oil filter housing so the whole thing has to be replaced.......

 

I'll report back if it sorts out my problem.

[sepulchrave]

I understand Maximus, but my point remains; the tappets are pressurised by oil pressure from the oil pump, they're not quietened by lying in a bath of undrained oil!

 

The camlobes are 'splash' lubricated, but that's not the problem you're having, your oil pressure is low and that's not a good thing.

[Andy J Rodnis]

We have the same problem on our Sharan TDII. I changed the oil and that helped a bit. It's still noisy when cold and the auto gearbox takes a while to kick in. I think the cold mornings don't help. A friend once said a bit of benzene in winter helped in a tractor's oil but I'm not sure that applies to cars.

[bofus]

Make sure you are running the correct viscosity oil, if the oil is too thick it will take time to get to the tappets especially when the weather is very cold.

 

Some oil filters do have anti drain valves to prevent the upper oil galleries draining back to the sump via the pump. Once again this can cause the same symptoms.

 

Any car left for a period of time will suffer this syndrome, it just gets worse as the oil gets thicker and the weather gets colder. This is why 90% of engine wear occurs at cold start time. Expensive race engines are spun over at 2000-3000 rpm with no ign and no fuel just to get oil pressure up quickly before starting.

 

Gav

[maximus]

I understand Maximus, but my point remains; the tappets are pressurised by oil pressure from the oil pump, they're not quietened by lying in a bath of undrained oil!

 

The camlobes are 'splash' lubricated, but that's not the problem you're having, your oil pressure is low and that's not a good thing.

 

Hi, a bit more info.

 

No - the oil pressure is not low, it's fine after just 5 seconds. I know how the lubrication system works and of course if the top end is starved of oil for 5 seconds there will be no oil for the tappets....

Yes - the oil is of the correct viscosity and is suitable for this car, I have also tried thicker and thinner oil to see if that helps, it does not.

Yes - it is the correct oil filter, I have tried genuine and non genuine, 90BHP and 110HHP filters, to no avail.

The engine has done 145,000 ish miles, so yes there's plenty of wear, but thats not the problem. It's sweet as a nut after the noisey start up.

 

The problem is that when it's cold, or after a lengthy period of not running, so may still be warm, the oil pressure light stays on for about 5 seconds, the top end starts to get very 'Tappety'. The oil light goes out, the engine is again quiet. This is due to having to re-prime the top end, after the ening has been run for say 30 seconds, its fine to re-start, i.e. the oil light goes straight out.

 

Now I know that some engines can be a bit noisey on start up but this is not the same.

 

This is due to the oil retention valve not operating correctly and letting the oil drain from the top of the engine into the sump, so everytime it has all drained down to the sump, it's like starting a car after an engine rebuild, not good of course!

 

So back to my original question, has anyone ever replaced this valve in the oil filter housing? as far as I can find out you have to replace the whole oil filter housing....

 

Cheers

Maximus

[seatkid]

The oil retention valve is integral to the oil filter on models fitted with screw on cannister filters. Cheap aftermarket filters often don't have them or are low quality/faulty. Only use OEM filters. Edited December 31, 2008 by seatkid

[f0ster]

Is this valve in the oil filter not the called the bypass valve, that is there to allow oil to bypass the filter in case of a blockage in the filter,

this rattle might be the big end shells getting worn a bit which causes a delay in oil pressure build up,

[seatkid]

Volkswagen Group original oil filters

 

The well-known high dirt absorption capacity of our oil filters is acheived with an extremely low flow resistance.Special blocks and non return valves prevent the oil filter from running dry and when the engine is switched off. They also ensure fast oil pressure build-up when the engine is started. In addition, special bypass valves ensure sufficient oil supply in all operating conditions.

 

Its been a long standing claim from VW that aftermarket filters often dont have non return valves.

[sepulchrave]

.....I have tried genuine and non genuine, 90BHP and 110HHP filters, to no avail.....

 

Guys, it's not the oil filter OK.

 

The engine has done 145,000 ish miles, so yes there's plenty of wear, but thats not the problem...

 

Why isn't it the problem? Seems like the oil pump is having to refloat the journals before any significant pressure gets to the top end.

 

Just because you don't like this answer doesn't mean it ain't so!

 

You could try replacing all the tappets and the cam, it'll be quieter but it won't put the oil light out, but I bet replacing all the shells and the oil pump WILL put the oil light out.

 

Unless you've owned this car from new you simply cannot say whether some muppet ran it out of oil prior to you getting it, and that's all it takes to produce the symptoms you describe.

 

I don't know if it's possible to remove the crank with the engine in situ, but you can certainly replace the big end shells (which will be the most worn), probably replace the oil pump and also inspect the mains just by removing the sump. These parts are all pretty cheap as well and the job wouldn't take long on a four-poster or over a pit.

 

The 'Oil retention valve' thing is a straw clutching exercise i'm afraid.

[f0ster]

I must say that my galaxy recently had a noisy engine, especially when cold for a while, I found the big end shells were down to

the copper, most of the white metal was gone, replacing then sorted it, the mains were ok, examined pump found within spec,

(example) the mazda 626 is noted for noisy hydraulic tappets, they get noisy when the car has done a lot of miles,

slight wear on the journals, but mostly wear in the oil pump, you get a reduced pressure to the top end, the valve spring pressure

is able to overcome the oil pressure to the top end causing excess tappet clearence and rattle,

new pump cures problem, the reduced pressure is within spec but when engine is hot the pressure is at the lower end of its operating range,

[mikej]

Could the issue be a blocked oil pickup pipe in the sump , i have had a similar issue on a high mileage car were the gauze filter was blocked up with crap and starved top end on start up , ok once oil was warmed up . Although not a diesel gal once it was stripped and cleaned it was fine ?