Torque Torque Torque And Low Speed

[dellybeanhead]

Hi,

I have bought a new (MkIII Ford Galaxy 1.8 diesel (125PS).

 

It is not very good at all at low speed manouvering. Particularly in reverse. You have to deliberately slip the clutch to keep the unit moving without stalling.

 

The Caravan club says to get a car with good torque. I thought I had.

 

Is torque misleading now-a-days I can see that the torque is good for cruising with power in reserve for overtaking. But in todays cars where the power does not kick in until the turbo does the low speed (pulling away, hill starts, etc) seem to be ignored in the torque/power specs. Can you still get hold of torque curve graphs as I can't find any.

 

So, I am having to change my car (after just 2 months) with a large financial loss I expect. I need a new car with 7 seats and good towing capability and economy. I am looking at the 2.0 version of the MKIII Galaxy which has a higher max towing limit and similar torque but max torque is available at slightly higher revs. I am also looking at the MKII Galaxy/VW Sharan/SEAT Alhambra range too but again there seems to be little in the numbers and these too achieve torque at higher revs. The figures (low revs for MkIII) suggest that the MKIII shoudl be good for low down torque. But it certainly isn't.

 

I am at a loss as to how I can tell what car will suit my all up 1500kg unit. Once bitten twice shy and I don't want to waste any more money.

 

 

Please help.

 

Is there a performance indicator that will tell me how good a car is for towing at speed and at manouvering at low speed.

 

I understand that going for an automatic will negate this problem as they convert the torque and wont burn out the cluthc (like in my Galaxy). But they are still quite a bit less economical.

 

Thanks James

[searcher]

Why not have a look here for some advice

 

http://www.whattowcar.com/

 

Another option why dont you look at the possibility of having your car chipped.

I know there are loads of companys that do it nowadays and it will improve the power and the torque and it will be a lot cheaper than changing the car.

[dellybeanhead]

Thanks, Yes I am considering having it chipped. That may be the way to go. Although I have heard from a lot of people that this engine is not good at towing.

 

The whattowcar website is slightly confusing as it only gives max torque and torque at certain speeds/revs. Which do not go low enough to detrmine it's pulling away capabilities. I think these figures are further skewed by teh turbo chrager which is obviosuly not in effect until the revs are high and the car is moving. And to make it worse none of the manufacturers seem to have a torque curve graph available.

[insider]

Rather than getting it chipped I would take it back to the Dealer and get them to re-programme the ECU. There is clearly a problem with the engine calibration if you are having to slip the clutch to the extent you describe. It's likely that an ECU software update is necessary and would solve these problems.

[dellybeanhead]

Good point. It is in the garage this week for a broken heater so I will get them to check for a software upgrade/fix too.

[dellybeanhead]

Thanks for feedback.

 

Here's something funny: The Ford specification flyer says:

 

"For those in need of even more pulling power the 2.0 litre units provide a remarkable 340Nm of peak torque"

 

Yet when you look at the table that the starred comment refers to you see that tyhe 1.8 also has 340Nm of peak torque and at lower revs too!

 

What is going on? How come the 2.0 is rated higher than the 1.8 for towing capacity yet it has the same max torque and the 1.8 at lowe revs. According to the Caravan Club Criteria that makes the 1.8 the better towing car.

[insider]

There's a mistake somewhere:

1.8 peak torque is 285Nm at 1,750rpm

2.0 peak torque is 340Nm at 2,000rpm

 

(for comparison the 1.9 VW engines in the MkII have a peak torque of 310Nm at 1,900rpm)

[Seatdriver]

Hi,

 

Had my 1.8tdci 125 re programmed by ford as it was almost impossible to set off without over revving as it would stall so easily. Now I can set off uphill with next to no revs and pull away in 2nd from a crawl.

 

On another note what broke in your heater?

[dellybeanhead]

Hi Vw,

 

It was the heater control motor that broke. So it was warm but only coming out on the drivers side. I thought that was OK but My wife didn't.

 

What was the s/w upgrade that you had. I still have pulling away probs and my dealer says that there is no upgrade. did you get your flywheel replaced too? could that b ethe reason for the improvment.

 

Thanks, James

[Smilge]

Talking to a freind of mine who works for Ford states this is a common problem with the 1.8 TDCi engine and they have fixed a few using the latest PCM update. There is also a problem with what is called "idle clip"; With the Ford common rail system, the throttle pedal doesn't "input" unless the engine is running at 750rpm or more.

[Seatdriver]

I agree this was most definately the update done to my car, doesn't seem quite as rapid anymore but now unless you drop the clutch with no rev's it won't stall and the problems you described regarding reversing have also been resolved. It wont however pull as cleanly or as hard as the old PD engine from low speed!, not really that impressed overall.

[dellybeanhead]

Thanks for that. Did you get the update doen under warranty or did you have to pay?

 

And what does PD engine mean.

 

Thanks

 

James

Edited May 4, 2008 by dellybeanhead

[Seatdriver]

Yup upgrade done at no cost (it should be done when its in for service) however mines been in for rather a lot of other things ho hum and it was noted by the sevice foreman that this upgrade hadn't been done.

 

As for PD it stands for (excuse spelling) Pumperdeuch! Yes its German, is fitted in all post 2000 Sharans/Galaxy/Alhambra and Yes its 1000000000000000% better than this useless piece of diesel junk ford have produced. The low down pulling torqe of the 115BHP PD engine wipes the floor with the 125BHP Ford one. There is no way this engine, even re-programmed will pull a caravan. Yes it goes like stink if you wind it over 2000rpm but for pulling away at low speeds with a heavy load I would doubt its ability even to pull the skin off a rice pudding.

 

I have seriously considered taking a hit and trading down a year for an older VW Sharan. If it keeps letting me down and irritating me I feel this will become a reality.

 

My fan blower motor failed by the way.

Edited May 4, 2008 by vwdriver

[seatkid]

IMO I wouldnt be surprised if most new Euro 4/5 diesels especially those with DPF fitted have pathetic torque at low revs. This is because the Euro specs dont allow engines to overfuel at low revs (which inevitably leads to excessive emissions / smoke) as in days gone by. The only way round this would be to remap/chip (with the problem that it would no longer be euro compliant and leads to reliabilty problems) or go the automatic gearbox route and possibly

[big_kev]

I think the problem is with these new diesel engines that have to be so "green".

 

I can't see these new engines clocking up the 100,000's of miles that the old ones did.

 

And apparently the gearboxes are pants as well.

 

I can pull away and change through all the gears up to 5th in my old gal without touching the throttle at all.......you can't move at all in these new diesels without revving their backsides off.

Edited May 4, 2008 by big_kev

[seatkid]

I can pull away and change through all the gears up to 5th in my old gal without touching the throttle at all.......you can't move at all in these new diesels without revving their backsides off.

 

I can second that observation.

 

I recall the time I was teaching my young lad slow speed manouveuring in an empty factory car park in 1st gear. I said "brake and clutch", however he only braked and forgot the clutch, the car continued on relentless toward a steel bollard. I yanked the handbrake on - still it went on - it refused to let me move the gearstick to neutral. I dived over the steering wheel and switch off the ignition. We stopped about 6 inches from the bollard.

 

My "award winning" :( ECO Corsa 1.3 multijet on the other hand stalls at every opportunity it can.

[big_kev]

Yep I have had 2 brand new diesel VW golfs and they have been the only car that I can reliably stall whilst changing up to 2nd.

 

I now have a new diesel Focus and its just as bad, gutless at low revs ...have almost dies twice stalling at t-juncions.

 

I now wheelspin most of the time when pulling away as i have the revs so high to avoid stalling.

 

And the Focus diesels like hell when you turn the ignition off, although this may just be a fault with this individual car.

 

Obviously these are company cars as I wouldn't waste my money on them.

[big_kev]

I recall the time I was teaching my young lad slow speed manouveuring in an empty factory car park

 

First time I've heard it called that.... :(

 

I used to do that with a young "lady".....I take it you missed the "y" off.. :)

[dellybeanhead]

This is great feedback thank you all.

 

Would I be right in summazing that the general consensus is.

1. you can improve it by getting the software upgraded.

but,

2. they are still crap at low speed pulling and you're better off going for a VW Sharan (140PS) if you want a nearly new MPV that can tow.

 

By the way, my decision to replace my car has been made as I weighed the caravan and it weighs a lot more than I expected (1550). So the 1.8 is illegal to tow it (max 1400).

 

So, do I go for the 2.0 new Galaxy. or a 140PS Sharan..... or maybe something else like a gas guzzling Land Cruiser and

Edited May 5, 2008 by dellybeanhead

[Seatdriver]

DO NOT BUY THE 2.0 TDCi as a member of my family has one, I have driven it and its still no low end pulling power, it does have a bit (and thats a little bit) more torque than the 1.8 but it still needs revving to get it to move. Oh and they are no more reliable as this particular car nearly caused a smash because of a possible trap in how the steering works.

 

Want to know why!

 

The belt that drives the alternator snapped (common prob apparently), on comes igniton warning light, no great probs just turn off all electric gizmos and drive home. NOPE because on the 2.0 TDCi the steering is electrically assisted not that the driver was aware of this fact and guess what happens at some unexpected moment when the battery begins to die, yup you loose all power assistance and cannot barely turn the wheel even at 30mph. In this instance it happened whilst cornering at 40mph, rather scary eh. I would have thought Ford in their wisdom would have put a STOP message up to warn the driver, but no.

 

Bottom line is the cars rubbish, but I suspect all new diesels are the same!

 

Once I have closure on my car I will post all the faults to date as they make rather scary reading.

[insider]

I would have thought Ford in their wisdom would have put a STOP message up to warn the driver, but no.

Surely the ignition warning light was a sufficient warning to stop? With so many electrical systems in modern cars these days I wouldn't consider it sensible to drive without the alternator working, unless it is just a very short journey home or to a garage to repair it.

If the car had traditional hydraulic power steering the belt failure would have prevented this working anyway and the car would not have been able to be driven at all.

 

Electro-hydraulic power steering is more efficient because the pump is only driven when it's needed, i.e. lower speed, high steering effort, rather than all the time the engine is running.

[Smilge]

Another note on Ford TDCi engines ....... The engine map limits the amount of torque produced in 1st and 2nd gear to save on emissions and to also protect the drivetrain.

[dellybeanhead]

Bleeno, is that the same for reverse gear too. Can it be changed?

[big_kev]

Surely the ignition warning light was a sufficient warning to stop?

 

Obviously not.... :rolleyes:

 

 

The Green lights mean....YEP...that work's mate !

 

The Blue light mean.....You FORGOT to turn this off !

 

The Orange lights mean.....HELLO do you know about this ?

 

The Red lights mean....STOP NOW !.... as either you or me ( the car) will be damaged soon.

 

Hope this helps.... :angry2:

[jkspoff]

Get a Galaxy mkII 150