Starting Problem

[Guest tedboy]

I am still having problems starting my 98 2.3 GLX. Problem is it will start o/k if it fires up first time (within 5 seconds), but if it fails it will not start at all ( even with jump leads). The odd thing is it will bump start o/k within a few feet. After being bump started first thing in morning, it will then start with out any problems for the rest of the day.

It has now been to 3 Ford garages, and has had diagnostics run on it, garages say diagnostics o/k, but engine still refuses to start. Fault appears to clear after 12 Hrs. when car will start only on first turn again.

So far the power hold relay, crankshaft position sensor. and fuel pressure sensor have all been replaced. I have also had the battery and spark plugs replaced. The fuel filter has also been replaced and fuel pressure has been checked.

 

Is there some timer in the engine mangment system that resets after appox 12 Hrs ?

 

Why will it bump start o/k but will not start using the starter?

 

Why have I not sold car ?

 

Any suggestions much appreciated

[seatkid]

Do the simple things first....

 

Start with eliminating the ignition system for faults. You've changed the spark plugs and it runs ok when its started so the coil pack sounds ok. (I assume theres no distributor?)

 

Try the HT leads - if they're shot you get a weak spark. Possibly not enough to start a cold engine which will "flood" after several seconds cranking (requiring even stronger spark)

 

Why can you bump start? The fuel system injects much less than when you do a normal key start and you get maximum spark voltage.

 

Leads/suppressors fail in 2 ways-

 

1. They go (very) high resistance/open circuit - symptom? poor starting first...

 

2. The insulation fails and track - symptom ? starting problems accompanied by rough running and missing.

 

Check the resistance of the HT leads and replace if necessary.

 

Can another forum member advise the correct resistance value please - I guess about 2k ohms if the suppressor is on the lead - or are they fitted with suppressor plugs?

[Guest Turbo]

Seatkid, if you grab hold of a plug lead while it`s running and it knocks you about 10 feet through the air, does that mean it`s knackered because it`s breaking down ?! What about running the engine at night to see if there are sparks jumping across from the leads or at least trying to start it ?

[seatkid]

if you grab hold of a plug lead while it`s running and it knocks you about 10 feet through the air, does that mean it`s knackered because it`s breaking down ?!

Probably, unless they're damp and dirty in which case clean them before you condemn them. Don't confuse this effect with holding a lead while its off the plug, the voltages in this case rise much higher and your body is the least resistance path. It doesnt take many volts across your body to give you a nasty jolt.

 

What about running the engine at night to see if there are sparks jumping across from the leads or at least trying to start it ?

In tedboys case, don't think that insulation breakdown is the problem as it would run rough or miss once he started and restarting would also be problematic. I think the problem is more likely a break in the inner conductor or in the plug cap.

 

If it were me I would lash up some temporary replacements using some well insulated wire to test it out before lashing out on an expensive new set of leads.

 

Many a time I've seen people jump to all sorts of exotic conclusions (inc myself I'm ashamed to say) when its just been a faulty plug lead or rotor arm/distributor. Recently a collegue of mine had a problem (Corsa) which main dealer diagnosed as fuel management computer and an independent garage diagnosed as sticking valves and a new cylinder head required for what turned out to be just a rotor arm (tracking).

 

KISS is the keyword. :rolleyes:

[Guest tedboy]

Thanks Seatkid for your reply, I will try a new set of leads and let you know the result. It still does not explain how after bump starting it then starts every time for the rest of the day ( even if left for 6 hrs and then starting with headlights switched on to test battery ?) but as you say "Do the simple things first.... "

Thanks again

[Guest Andy]

I had a similar problem ,it turned out to be relay number 30....

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[ridway]

I think the clue to your problem may be the fact it will bump start ok. While cranking, the system voltage will drop off, when doing a bump start it won't. The system voltage will certainly be less while the starter is running. To what extent will depend on battery condition, temperature, lead resistance etc.

 

You say the problem persists even with extra current from a second battery. It may be worth checking the condition of the battery primary leads and main earth points to check they're not dropping the voltage while cranking. Have a good feel at the terminal bolts and earth points after cranking a few times to see if they're warm or hot if the problem is bad. No matter how much cranking power is available from the batteries if there is a resistance in the leads to the system the voltage available for the system will be lower than it should be.

 

I dont know what the threshold supply voltages are for the ECU to work correctly but there must be a level at which problems can start to occur. Is there a fault code for undervoltage?

 

It could be a combination of the HT problems as already mentioned and at what I hinted at with system voltages. Another bit that should'nt be overlooked is the ignition module or coil pack that could be on it's last.

 

You have the worse kind of fault there, I wish you luck

 

 

Rich

[Guest hawky42]

Nice, I had a similar problem on a 96 2.0

pulled up at the shop... dead a s a dodo .. turns over fine but makes no attempt to start or fire up,

after getting the TIS diagrams eventually traced the fault back to the control relay

I reseated the relay below to the drivers right of the dash, methinks as quoted earlier twas marked with a 30...

suggest all relays are reseated anyway as they seem to work loose over time

:o

[paulmpaciorek]

Hi all

 

The works Galaxy 2.3 (1998) has gone to the local Fraud dealer with starting problems that mirror some mentioned here and that all point to Relay 30 being at fault.

The management in their infinite wisdom booked it in to have the problem rectified ,not knowing about this site and all the information available !!! (Hindsight ...a wonderful thing blah blah blah !!)......anyway long and short of it Fraud want to replace the Powertrain Control Module at a cost of

[paulmpaciorek]

Just a quick update on the Powertrain Control Module saga....the bill from Frauds is now a grand total (not quite a grand !!) of

[paulmpaciorek]

Is the replacement of the PCM a "dashboard out " job ????

[Guest fredt]

Depends on wether it's pre or post 98? pre 98 just the lower dash on the drivers side has to come off, post 98 it can be removed through the clock binicle hole that is once the clocks have been removed :lol:

[Ivor_E_Tower]

Tedboy - how old is the battery? We had a similar sort of problem on my parents' old car many years ago - if it started OK first thing, it would be OK for rest of day, if not then "oh dear" as it was an auto. It turned out to be a battery on the way out - if the voltage was OK first thing in the morning then it coughd into life and got charged up OK, but if the voltage droped below a certain level, there wasn't enough to power all the electronics etc, and it became impossible (or at least very difficult) to start.

[AdrianM]

Don't post much but pop in from time to time...........

 

Just had exact same fault - turns over and over but won't start. Unfortunately this happened 90 miles from home so had to leave it at a local garage. Thanks to this thread I was able to call the garage and point them in the right direction. Engine Management Control Relay was the culprit - easily fixed.

 

Cheers guys,

AdrianM