Adding Traction Control

[insider]

As far as I know, all Mk2s come with ABS as standard. Traction Control was an option on some models and also ESP on others.

Looking through the wiring diagrams, it appears that the same ABS module is used for Traction Control because the same wheel sensors are used. (There is an entirely different module for ESP with an added yaw sensor and steering position sensor).

The only difference might be the hydraulic control unit that applies brake pressure to the wheels. If this is the same unit then surely it's something that can be programmed in the ABS module with VAG-COM? Could it be that easy to add Traction Control? Can anyone check whether a different ABS module or hydraulic control unit is used on vehicles with/without Traction Control?

[big_kev]

I am not a fan of any of these.

 

ABS......when I put my foot on the brake, I want to brake, I don't want a dodgy compter to decide it doesn't want to !

 

Traction Control ( inc. ESP ).......same issue again I expect to feel the slippage of the wheels when I do something wrong I can then correct for it......these.....especially esp......encourage you to just throw vehicles around corners and let the computer auto correct for you.........the problem with this is that there is no feedback......you don't feel it start to slip.....it just suddenly goes and you are way past the point of no return and off the road or into oncoming traffic.

 

 

Nah......best to learn to drive properly and FEEL what's happening.

 

Just my opinion....maybe I'm getting old......bring back rear wheel drive....much nicer to drive.

[insider]

I appreciate your opinion big_kev but it didn't really answer the question!

However, these safety systems are and have been life savers for lesser drivers than yourself. Not everyone has the skill to pump the brake pedal when they start to go into a skid as ABS does automatically for you.

Traction Control is especially useful in wet and icy conditions and I know someone who would have gone sideways into a tree after hitting a patch of black ice on a bend were it not for the ESP intervening to correct it (he now won't have a car without it!). I don't know many drivers, however experienced that would have been able to react quickly enough to avoid that!

 

Anyway, back to the technical questions - can anyone shed any light on this?

[MrT]

I always thought that the traction control operates by applying pressure to the brakes whilst the ABS only reduces pressure. I would have thought that an ABS device would not normally be able to apply pressure on its own, but then again Ford could have used the unit that does both for reasons of commonality. On mine the engine also reduces power, but this could be a function of the ESP.

 

I would much prefer to have ESP and ABS and I never rely on them, they are there for the day I make an error, which no doubt will happen.

 

Oddly enough I have had the ESP warning light come on on my other half's Focus when losing grip on pulling off fast with the front wheels at a slight angle. Normal behaviour you may say, but she does not have ESP on her Focus, that is unless it was fitted without the ESP switch.

[big_kev]

I appreciate your opinion big_kev but it didn't really answer the question!

However, these safety systems are and have been life savers for lesser drivers than yourself. Not everyone has the skill to pump the brake pedal when they start to go into a skid as ABS does automatically for you.

Traction Control is especially useful in wet and icy conditions and I know someone who would have gone sideways into a tree after hitting a patch of black ice on a bend were it not for the ESP intervening to correct it (he now won't have a car without it!). I don't know many drivers, however experienced that would have been able to react quickly enough to avoid that!

 

Anyway, back to the technical questions - can anyone shed any light on this?

 

I don't think there has ever been a case of ABS saving someones life...it has killed a few people though :lol:

 

By the way traction control doesn't work on black ice.. :lol:

 

Anyway, back to the technical questions.....

 

If you are intent on this you will need, for starters, to replace your brake servo and some of the associated pipework.

 

Also the hydraulic control unit will need replaced and most of its associated pipework.

 

Also the ABS ECU will need replacing.

 

 

There will be other items but these were the most obvious.

[seatkid]

I don't think there has ever been a case of ABS saving someones life...it has killed a few people though :lol:

It's not wise to start urban myths that could endanger life.

 

ABS saves lives.

 

Safety organisations worldwide can probably give you plenty of evidence of the safety advantages of ABS. The manufacturers didnt put ABS on vehicles as a marketing gimmick, they put it on under pressure from government and insurance companies. AFAIK its now illegal to sell new cars in the UK without ABS.

 

Traction control does work on black ice, for that matter any other colour of ice. Traction control may use the same wheel sensors as ABS, but it controls traction by applying a brake as opposed to releasing a brake and by reducing engine output momentarily. It requires a different type of brake control hydraulics so , insider... the answer is no, enabling traction control is not just a simple VAGCOM plus a little bit type fix.

 

 

BTW EU is legislating to have ESP fitted as standard in the next year or two.

Edited October 3, 2007 by seatkid

[big_kev]

BTW EU is legislating to have ESP fitted as standard in the next year or two.

 

That inspires me with confidence !

 

 

 

Good points SK.

 

However my main worry is that all these gizmo's ( gimmicks in my book ) encourages inexperienced drivers to think that the car will protect them in all circumstances and rely far too much on these devices.

 

How many people think that because they have ABS they drive up the backside of the car in front.

Doubtless people with ESP will think they can just throw the car around corners and drive on ice and snow as if it was a normnal road.

 

I prefer to rely on not getting into trouble in the first place.

 

If people didn't drive like idiots they wouldn't need this stuff.

 

 

 

And apologies for being sarcastic to insider...just had an argument with the dragon and I was in a bad mood.

 

 

Still say bring back rear wheel drive.. :lol:

[seatkid]

However my main worry is that all these gizmo's ( gimmicks in my book ) encourages inexperienced drivers to think that the car will protect them in all circumstances and rely far too much on these devices.

 

How many people think that because they have ABS they drive up the backside of the car in front.

Doubtless people with ESP will think they can just throw the car around corners and drive on ice and snow as if it was a normnal road.

 

I prefer to rely on not getting into trouble in the first place.

Today's under 30's generally don't know what ABS is, they just expect brakes to work. In another 10 years most people wont be aware of ABS or ESP as it will be standard.

 

Do you ever consider that split/dual hydraulic circuits or a brake pressure limiting valve or even servo assisted braking makes you drive more recklessly?

 

True, youngsters don't know about pumping brakes, or even using engine braking. But these are largely irrelevant to modern motoring.

 

Remember 20-30 years ago, the handling and braking systems of the average car was attrocious compared with a new basic car.

 

Believe me, ABS can turn a crisis into a non event........you will need it at least once in your life.

Edited October 3, 2007 by seatkid

[Smilge]

You're right Sk ........ and how many times have you heard of people that have been involved in an accident that have "floored" the brake pedal and froze and then complained that the brakes didn't stop them in time? Errr .. the ABS allows you to steer out of trouble .......

[big_kev]

You're right Sk ........ and how many times have you heard of people that have been involved in an accident that have "floored" the brake pedal and froze and then complained that the brakes didn't stop them in time? Errr .. the ABS allows you to steer out of trouble .......

 

Most people just floor the brake and freeze.....usually this is the only option.

 

I don't like the idea of mowing down pedestrians on single carraigeways...although better than steering to the right into oncoming traffic.

 

Dual carraigeways are likewise, big wagon or barrier.

 

If you don't drive up the @rse of the car in front your brakes will be fine and you will easily stop in time.

 

And just to spite me my ABS on the Gal has packed in again, has been ok for the last 3 months.

[seatkid]

I don't like the idea of mowing down pedestrians on single carraigeways...although better than steering to the right into oncoming traffic.

If you don't drive up the @rse of the car in front your brakes will be fine and you will easily stop in time.

I think my instinct would be to steer clear of the pedestrian :lol:

 

The trouble with leaving a reasonable gap is that a bunch of t***s always see the need to fill it. ;)

 

And just to spite me my ABS on the Gal has packed in again, has been ok for the last 3 months.

Thats how you like it, surely? :lol:

[big_kev]

Thats how you like it, surely? :lol:

 

Yeh but not if the MOT is due...still got a few months to go.

 

I will have to beat sensor with hammer again.. :lol:

[Sher]

ABS braking is the most important safety feature introduce in the last 15 years or so. It should be a standard fit.

Seatkid is right to want to squash Urban Myths as mentioned before.

ABS is not totally foolproof but for the ordinary modern driver who does not have the opportunity to practise cadence braking on empty roads which are covered in snow/ice they are a life/car saver.

Where I live we see ice and snow more than average for the UK and in my youth I had plenty of opportunity.

Any idiot who tail ends because he has ABS knows nothing. I remember reading and seeing information that ABS will increase the braking distance compared to an experienced driver using the correct technique.

 

I agree with big_kev on one matter though about rear wheel drive, provided the engine is in the rear, traction is better, steering is lighter and with a decent suspension system is easily controlled in all conditions.

[big_kev]

The main advantage claimed with ABS is that it allows you to steer around obstacles....but this only works in test conditions when you know the obstacle is there and you are prepared for it.

 

In reality, nearly all drivers will just hit the brakes and hope, and if they do try to "steer out of it" they are most likely going to collide with either other vehicles and/or pedestrians.

 

ABS doesn't do diddly squat on ice or snow, in fact it is worse than normal brakes.

At least with normal brakes you have the opportunity to dig the wheels in or slide sideways ....with ABS you just plough headfirst with no braking straight into it......( steering is innefective as you are on snow or ice ).

 

Also don't try pumping the brakes with ABS doesn't work and neither will the ABS if you try it.

 

I wonder if the increase in the kill rate for pedestrains is related to this as tailgating drivers are now able to avoid the vehicle in front by mounting the kerb !

 

As you can gather I am still not a fan.

[fosterman]

This is of probably little consequence to the overall debate.......however,

 

MANY years ago, I owned a "T" suffix Alfa Romeo 1.3 Ti.

 

Whilst not being the best of cars (tin worm could be heard all day - every day), was very well balanced, this car did not have ABS, or traction control, or any other electronic gizmos, but got me out ' of trouble ' on several occasions, though probably down to me as I 'cut my teeth' on a Morris Marinaaaaaa.

[seatkid]

The main advantage claimed with ABS is that it allows you to steer around obstacles....but this only works in test conditions when you know the obstacle is there and you are prepared for it.

AFAIK it has never been claimed that ABS helps you steer to round obstacles - thats ESP. (Remember the hoohaa concerning the Mercedes A class and the "elk" test which forced Mercedes to adapt ESP as standard?)

 

Using ABS is actually the most effective way to brake on ice - more effective than a human could manage - though granted on sheet ice the stopping distances could be very long, on intermittent icy patches ABS excels and reacts far faster than a human can think and under these circumstances some steering control will also be maintained (though not full)

 

Loose snow and loose gravel are the only surfaces that ABS will give you a disadvantage (over fully locked wheels).

 

Thankfully due to modern tyres and modern steering geometry that use of power steering allows, most people don't trigger ABS very often if at all.

 

I guess some ABS systems/implementations will be better than others though.

 

And having ESP "switchable" and encouraged to be turned off by idiots like Clarkson, Hammond and Tiff Nidell to make the car more "exciting" defeats all the safety benefits.....

[Saif Rehman]

Sorry to divert away from the initial request from 'insider' about traction control - after 'googling' ABS brakes came up with this rather interesting website.

 

And they seem to disagree with SK's idea that it saves lives and i quote:

It turns out that in a 1996 study, vehicles equipped with ABS were overall no less likely to be involved in fatal accidents than vehicles without. The study actually stated that although cars with ABS were less likely to be involved in accidents fatal to the occupants of other cars, they are more likely to be involved in accidents fatal to the occupants of the ABS car, especially single-vehicle accidents

okay, admittingly it was way back in 1996 so have things improved? It also suggests that people were not fully aware of how ABS works and even suggests that owners need more training!

 

I can see this debate continuing................

 

P.S. Not to fussy about ABS but, ESP and Traction Control i would be interested in.

Edited October 4, 2007 by Saif Rehman

[big_kev]

And having ESP "switchable" and encouraged to be turned off by idiots like Clarkson, Hammond and Tiff Nidell to make the car more "exciting" defeats all the safety benefits.....

 

I forgot about that........thats handy.........I will just throw my car around this wet corner the EPS will save me if I take it too quickly........bummer !........I forgot I turned it off earlier.............that's a big tree !

 

Your right, kind of defeats the point of having it... ;)

 

 

The study actually stated that although cars with ABS were less likely to be involved in accidents fatal to the occupants of other cars, they are more likely to be involved in accidents fatal to the occupants of the ABS car,

 

Please tell me these were BMW's.... ;)

[insider]

As this seems to be turning into more of an ABS / ESP debate, these might be of interest:

 

ABS:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uq4DDMMoomU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2vHkx-8Bdk

 

ESP:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1w7Dbhz65-M

[big_kev]

As this seems to be turning into more of an ABS / ESP debate, these might be of interest:

 

ABS:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uq4DDMMoomU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2vHkx-8Bdk

 

ESP:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1w7Dbhz65-M

 

ABS:

1:love to see how this again with the vehicle starting of in the other lane.

Or alternatively on single carriageway.......which is where most nasty braking accidents are.

 

2:What idiot drives that fast on snow ?.....ps don't believe it....ABS is worse on snow and loose ground hence why they developed ESP.

 

ESP:

Does look impressive....what do you do if it is turned of, via the handy "off button".

Still don't understand the reason for having this button.....doubtless there is a good explanation.