Dragon Performance Tuning

[insider]

Does anyone out there have any experience with or opinions about Dragon Performance plug-in diesel tuning modules?

 

For

[seatkid]

Buy 2 and you might get 60% more power and torque and 20% better fuel consumption.

 

Buy 3 and.......

 

:o

[Willie Krashitt]

Ask them to confirm in writing that the peak cylinder pressure does not go above 160bar, that the exhaust temperature pre-turbo is below 750

[raymac]

for that price you can get the ecu properly remapped ,do a search on google and see what you can find, some decent prices on ebay also :D

[insider]

Ask them to confirm in writing that the peak cylinder pressure does not go above 160bar, that the exhaust temperature pre-turbo is below 750

[insider]

Ask them to confirm in writing that the peak cylinder pressure does not go above 160bar, that the exhaust temperature pre-turbo is below 750

[seatkid]

Their reply is basically "No guarantee given mate, but here is some bulls**t to impress you in the meantime, we also thrown a load of porkies to throw you off the scent..."

 

The PD is the smokiest engine in the world! Is that why it was one of the first EURO IV compliant engines on the market?

 

The units are designed to work within all the preset limits Bosch build into the ecu, it's the best we can get from the maximums - so still in DIY mod safe comfort zone. :angry2: The fact is these boxes override the limits and fool the ECU......

 

 

The facts are

 

You will perceive "better" performance, although in reality most of this "improvement" will be at the low to mid end.

 

Your mpg will be worse - the idea it will be better is ludicrous, the box fools the ECU and the mpg reading on the trip computer will be inaccurate.

 

Your engine will no longer comply with EU law

 

Your engine will smoke a lot and your oil will be sooted up in a fraction of the normal service interval leading to long term wear problems.

 

Your engine will potentially be subject to stresses beyond its design limit causing damage such as warped heads. (See overheating posts)

 

Your transmission and brakes are not designed to cope with "extra performance".

 

You will be poisoning old ladies and children and dirtying streets and buildings.

 

You will be invalidating your insurance unless you DECLARE IT.

 

When you sell your car you will be breaking the law if you do not declare your car was modified in this way.

[Willie Krashitt]

As SK and I have said before, if it were so easy, the manufacturers would be falling over themselves to offer power like this. Truth is they don't as they have meet customer expectations for reliability, as well as legal requirements for emissions, fuel economy etc. VW fit different turbo's and injectors for each power level for this reason.

 

Dragon:"The points you raise are all impossible to quantify for you."

 

Bul***it! Cylinder pressure transducers, instrumented injectors, turbo speed sensors smoke meters etc are all available, it is just that most of the hot chip /remap companies aren't prepared to spend several

[jkspoff]

I had my Galaxy 115 Tdi remapped over a year ago, it was absolutely superb, it made an MPV into an entertaining car, but it came with consequences. As soon as I put the engine under full load with a caravan attached the extra power was too much, it was overheating and risking the whole engine. The fuel consumption is completely impossible to be better with any type of add on or remap that outputs more power, it is simple physics. By all means get it done if all you do is drive around with little load, but make sure you do all the necessary modifications else where or you risk a very hefty bill.

If you want to go fast in an MPV then buy a performance MPV, maybe the titanium s-max or the like..............If it was that easy then why doesn't the manufacture do it, the larger engined Galaxy and the like have other modifications. I am speaking from experience, it is absolutely superb to have the extra perfromance, but beware.

Edited July 20, 2007 by jkspoff

[gio]

I had my Galaxy 115 Tdi remapped over a year ago, it was absolutely superb, it made an MPV into an entertaining car, but it came with consequences. As soon as I put the engine under full load with a caravan attached the extra power was too much, it was overheating and risking the whole engine. The fuel consumption is completely impossible to be better with any type of add on or remap that outputs more power, it is simple physics. By all means get it done if all you do is drive around with little load, but make sure you do all the necessary modifications else where or you risk a very hefty bill.

If you want to go fast in an MPV then buy a performance MPV, maybe the titanium s-max or the like..............If it was that easy then why doesn't the manufacture do it, the larger engined Galaxy and the like have other modifications. I am speaking from experience, it is absolutely superb to have the extra perfromance, but beware.

 

Actually seat will remap your tdi for you, so you see yes manufactureres will/do do it.

 

INSIDER.

If i were you i would get a remap try someone like celtic tunning they come out to you,and use both methods not just exhaust temp type tunning.

 

But lets be honest here do you really expect 30 or 40% more power reliabully? with just a remap? it don't happen, but you can get around

20% more by a decent remapper with out any spikes in your delievery.

 

sk. am surprised to hear the pd unit was one of the first engines to be euro iv? as i was lead to believe that vw had started to use commonrail because

the pd system was hard to get to comply? but on the otherhand when you say one of the first! there aint that many different type of diesel platforms

so one of the first could also mean second from last? and the trip computer statement! please its pretty inaccurate to start with so alittle more

inaccurate anit either here or there.

and then there is "your engine will no longer comply" ect... what rubbish, if it passes the smoke test, and they do then it complies..

agree with most everything else, except the trasmission statement, which is partly true and partly wrong.. its not the power[bhp]

its the torque and mainly spikes in the map that distroy trasmissions, a good tunner will not distroy your trasmission.

[seatkid]

Euro IV compliance has been compulsory since Jan 2005.

 

IMO the reasons for VW going to common rail are mainly marketing and manufacturing costs. Vw's competitors using CR are producing far more refined diesels than VW. Also with PD now being very niche product, I don't think Bosch are very interested in developing PD further.

 

Common rail is capable of much more sophisticated injection strategies than PD. This probably means it can meet Euro V requirements somewhat easier particularly wrt NOx which the PD relies on a unreliable/costly EGR setup.

 

There is also a trend to abandon timing belts, because of servicing requirements, possibly the aggro that VW has had with them and with the future use of VVT likely.

 

I have never heard of a manufacturer offering a remap service.....could you elaborate on your claim about Seat?

 

P.s. the reference to trip computer inaccuracy refers to the fact that tuning boxes elongate injection periods (inject more fuel) without the ECU being aware of this. The ECU calculates mpg based on its injection period. Therefore the illusion that mpg is unaffected or improved.

 

I doubt if many tuning boxes or remaps would pass the Compliance Tests - the MOT smoke test is not a Euro compliance test. I refer to Euro law not UK MOT requirements.

 

My main gripe is the suspicion that 95% of people who use tuning boxes/remaps do not declare them on their insurance, and don't declare their use to the next buyer. And from what I see in my town, they smoke like hell.

 

Yes, torque is the destroyer of transmissions, the Galaxy Autobox is already at the limit regarding torque, a search of the forum will confirm the unreliabilty of this (Jatco) box.

 

A factory produced 150ps model has an uprated braking system c/w with say the 115ps model. If the manufacturer didn't do this, they would stand accused of gross negligence and their insurance rating would probably be several groups higher.

 

Remember this is my opinion only.

Edited July 22, 2007 by seatkid

[insider]

There's some healthy discussion on this topic! To continue some of the points raised:

 

Seatkid

[seatkid]

It would be interesting to find out how much extra the insurance will be.

[insider]

It would be interesting to find out how much extra the insurance will be.

 

I got comparison quotes with an Insurance company and the difference was 22% between a standard (115bhp) and modified (150bhp) car. They would also add a few hundred pounds to the compulsory excess. Another factor to add to the decision making process.

 

Out of interest, the premium difference between factory standard cars 115 to 150 bhp was only 4%!

 

I suppose that's why so many people (wrongly) fail to inform their insurers of any modifications.

[gio]

Euro IV compliance has been compulsory since Jan 2005.

 

IMO the reasons for VW going to common rail are mainly marketing and manufacturing costs. Vw's competitors using CR are producing far more refined diesels than VW. Also with PD now being very niche product, I don't think Bosch are very interested in developing PD further.

 

Common rail is capable of much more sophisticated injection strategies than PD. This probably means it can meet Euro V requirements somewhat easier particularly wrt NOx which the PD relies on a unreliable/costly EGR setup.

 

There is also a trend to abandon timing belts, because of servicing requirements, possibly the aggro that VW has had with them and with the future use of VVT likely.

 

I have never heard of a manufacturer offering a remap service.....could you elaborate on your claim about Seat?

 

P.s. the reference to trip computer inaccuracy refers to the fact that tuning boxes elongate injection periods (inject more fuel) without the ECU being aware of this. The ECU calculates mpg based on its injection period. Therefore the illusion that mpg is unaffected or improved.

 

I doubt if many tuning boxes or remaps would pass the Compliance Tests - the MOT smoke test is not a Euro compliance test. I refer to Euro law not UK MOT requirements.

 

My main gripe is the suspicion that 95% of people who use tuning boxes/remaps do not declare them on their insurance, and don't declare their use to the next buyer. And from what I see in my town, they smoke like hell.

 

Yes, torque is the destroyer of transmissions, the Galaxy Autobox is already at the limit regarding torque, a search of the forum will confirm the unreliabilty of this (Jatco) box.

 

A factory produced 150ps model has an uprated braking system c/w with say the 115ps model. If the manufacturer didn't do this, they would stand accused of gross negligence and their insurance rating would probably be several groups higher.

 

Remember this is my opinion only.

 

been away on my holidays, so sorry for the delay. seat remapping, you have a seat ask your local dealer, all i know is that someone on a caravan

forum asked about remaps and how safe/good they were as she had been offered one on her new alhambra by the dealer.

 

as for the pd v cr, you are only repeating what i said are you not?

 

trip computer? you seem to think that in standard form these things are accurate? how wrong can you be.

 

updated brakes, now i am all for this, but lets get it in to perspective . 115bhp v 150bhp same car same brakes.

 

please tell me the diffence in stopping distances at 20,30,40,50,60,70,80 ect ect there would not be any. the uprated brakes would help either car

and they only become a benefit to the 150 bhp car when it starts to perform in a manor superior to the 115 bhp.

 

remap and compliance to smoke test!!!! i repeat a badly remapped car will be worse a well remaped car will be just

as good as stadard. in otherwords it will pass any test and being as the map is solely for your car, unlike the

original one and no 2 engines are the same therefore their map has to fit all, your remap is perfect for your car and

if not too highly tuned better alround including mpg. [if you recall fords problem with smokers and the need to remap some not all of there

tdci] prove the factory map is not the bees knees

 

As for you statement on smokey cars being remaped cars, how do you know for sure?

dieselcar mag [now whatdieselcar] was concerned back in 97 about the egr vavle and the shit it chucks

into the engine. they are forever going wrong and can be the cause of a smoker.

So not everysmoker is down to a remap, and infact as you will know these vag units are prone to it for a variety of reasons.

[seatkid]

I insist on getting the last word in.......

 

twaddle....

 

:) :) :ph34r:

[Biscuit]

Hi all

i've got a tuning box on my gal (not Dragon).

it has increased the power( to what im not sure,)

it is no more smoky than before i fitted it.

Last week car had mot and it sailed through the emissions with the box on,

the mot examiner even commented on the responsiveness of the engine.

[insider]

I insist on getting the last word in.......

 

twaddle....

 

:lol: ;) :P

 

Which bit is twaddle? I thought the comment on the brakes made sense. As I mentioned previously, I thought the brakes were the same on all models. And, as gio says, they would only make a difference if you are going faster than the car was originally designed for.

[insider]

Hi all

i've got a tuning box on my gal (not Dragon).

it has increased the power( to what im not sure,)

it is no more smoky than before i fitted it.

Last week car had mot and it sailed through the emissions with the box on,

the mot examiner even commented on the responsiveness of the engine.

 

My understanding so far is that the cheap ebay boxes are just resistor boxes and fool the ECU into over-fuelling the engine. This crude way of doing it could be what causes many of the problems experienced by some forum members.

The more expensive boxes (Dragon, DPT, Diesel Bob, etc.) apparently work by modifying the signal from the ECU to the fuel rail, hence the ECU knows nothing about it. They also modify the signal differently across the rev range so the result is much less crude than a simple resistor.

 

Having got the opinions from tuning box suppliers and engine re-mappers (and one that does both), the results were not particularly surprising:

 

TUNING BOXES - remapping is more difficult/expensive to return to original; remapping gives maximum power gain but reduced engine life; tuning boxes are best because they safely increase power, torque and mpg.

 

REMAPPERS - remaps are best because many different engine factors can be changed to suit your car; tuning boxes are easily removed so that you can take them off and sell them when you realise they are no good.

 

BOTH - we use both and even together in some applications, i.e. remapped engine + tuning box; tuning boxes are best for DIY; remapping can be "pot luck" because you are changing some parameters without knowing whether it is safe.

 

Biscuit - what are your experiences with the tuning box? Do you use your car for towing? Another member had a bad experience with a remapped engine when towing. In fact, I haven't seen any detrimental experiences on the forum with tuning boxes, only cars that have been remapped.

How has your mpg been affected? (honest answer please!) If it's got worse is it outweighed by the increase in performance you are getting?

[Biscuit]

[cuit[/b] - what are your experiences with the tuning box? Do you use your car for towing? Another member had a bad experience with a remapped engine when towing. In fact, I haven't seen any detrimental experiences on the forum with tuning boxes, only cars that have been remapped.

How has your mpg been affected? (honest answer please!) If it's got worse is it outweighed by the increase in performance you are getting?

 

I dont use the car for towing

as for the fuel consumption before i fitted the tuning box

on a normal trip to work i was getting 44-48 mpg

now i average 52-55 mpg on the same route

Edited August 6, 2007 by Biscuit

[gio]

Hi all

i've got a tuning box on my gal (not Dragon).

it has increased the power( to what im not sure,)

it is no more smoky than before i fitted it.

Last week car had mot and it sailed through the emissions with the box on,

the mot examiner even commented on the responsiveness of the engine.

 

My understanding so far is that the cheap ebay boxes are just resistor boxes and fool the ECU into over-fuelling the engine. This crude way of doing it could be what causes many of the problems experienced by some forum members.

The more expensive boxes (Dragon, DPT, Diesel Bob, etc.) apparently work by modifying the signal from the ECU to the fuel rail, hence the ECU knows nothing about it. They also modify the signal differently across the rev range so the result is much less crude than a simple resistor.

 

Having got the opinions from tuning box suppliers and engine re-mappers (and one that does both), the results were not particularly surprising:

 

TUNING BOXES - remapping is more difficult/expensive to return to original; remapping gives maximum power gain but reduced engine life; tuning boxes are best because they safely increase power, torque and mpg.

 

REMAPPERS - remaps are best because many different engine factors can be changed to suit your car; tuning boxes are easily removed so that you can take them off and sell them when you realise they are no good.

 

BOTH - we use both and even together in some applications, i.e. remapped engine + tuning box; tuning boxes are best for DIY; remapping can be "pot luck" because you are changing some parameters without knowing whether it is safe.

 

Biscuit - what are your experiences with the tuning box? Do you use your car for towing? Another member had a bad experience with a remapped engine when towing. In fact, I haven't seen any detrimental experiences on the forum with tuning boxes, only cars that have been remapped.

How has your mpg been affected? (honest answer please!) If it's got worse is it outweighed by the increase in performance you are getting?

 

Problem with the remap market was ealier remappers and some bodge artist , didn't really understand what they were doing fully.

Without using a rolling road, which is common you really need someone who is at the top of this field, otherwise you can

end up with a map that has a couple of nasty spikes, in otherwords not a nice take up across the rev range.

 

Another problem is the torque, and too many bodge artist up this way to high for the running gear to cope.

 

In my opinion nothing wrong with a remap, just the person doing it, or the custormer asking for too much.

 

I bought my galaxy with 100k on the clocks, will not be remapping it as both the clutch and turbo are original [shame]

 

Garrett says turbo life expectancy to be around only 80k [yes i know many do double that] so really it would be a little

silly to remap at this stage. god forbid turbo went and i had the cash for a new clutch job too, then a remap would

be on the cards straight away,but bear in mind i would went it set up on a rolling road, and as i have the 115 verson

would not want or take anymore than an extra 22/23 bhp with no more than a 10% increase in torque either.

[insider]

Another problem is the torque, and too many bodge artist up this way to high for the running gear to cope.

 

... and as i have the 115 verson would not want or take anymore than an extra 22/23 bhp with no more than a 10% increase in torque either.

 

I found this on the Superchips website:

http://www.superchips.co.uk/curves/vagtd115.pdf

 

First issue is that the "original" torque curve peaks at 283Nm when I understood that the peak torque for 115 (and 130 and 150) engines is 310Nm?

Secondly, the reason for the peak torque being 310Nm is that the gearbox is rated at 350Nm maximum. As the Superchips curve goes above this between 1700 and 3000 rpm anyone that's had a remap done by Superchips is risking a gearbox failure.

Also, the maximum torque for the auto gearbox is probably lower again. Does anyone know if the engine maps are different between autos and manuals, i.e. to reduce the torque from 310Nm for autos? If so, perhaps Superchips have used the torque curve for an auto to exaggerate the difference?

 

Anyway, I agree with gio, 10% is a sensible increase in torque (310 to 341Nm) to keep it within the limit for the gearbox.

[insider]

as for the fuel consumption before i fitted the tuning box

on a normal trip to work i was getting 44-48 mpg

now i average 52-55 mpg on the same route

 

Just to confirm, is this manually calculated or read from the trip computer?