Battery Drain

[Guest greenfingers]

Had a dead battery about a week ago, found no record of replacement in the service history, and thought at 5 years old and winter approaching, I would treat the old gal to a new one.

I had read various threads on here about calcium batteries etc, but my local shop recommended a lead acid 'Numax' 88amp which was the same size as the old one, but had a lower rating.

I immediately noticed how the car started instantly, compared to previously when the engine cranked over almost a complete cycle before sparking into life.

Thought my troubles were over - until the car had been left standing for 2 days. There wasn't even enough juice to operate the remote locking.

I did a search on this forum and found a number of recommendations, including checking for a drain by rigging an ammeter in series with the battery lead, and pulling out fuses one by one.

Could I not simply pull out fuses one by one, and look for a voltage by bridging the fuse contacts with a voltmeter?

I am not an electrician, and am wary of damaging the ECU etc. Any help or other suggestions would be appreciated.

[tiny]

Sorry i cant help with the battery drain problem but the attatched service bulletin from ford states that your vehicle should be fitted with a Ca battery ONLY.

 

Ca type batteries fitted to Galaxy from 09-99

 

Take a copy with you to the retailer and insist they change the battery for the one you originally asked for.

 

Its possible that the charging system is slightly different for the 2 different types of battery and that might be causing your problem.

 

Also ask if they can do a "discharge test" on your old one to see if there was a fault with it.

 

For anyone else looking at this document, it has additional pages to the one in my earlier post, I seem to have lost a page or two from the old one. This one is complete.

Ca_Batteries_word.htm

[Andrew T]

When I asked about using Lead Acid in place of Calcium this the reply I recieved from Seatkid.

 

You have to use Lead-calcium tech batteries on Ford engines as their "smart" alternator is set to charge calcium batteries. They require a much higher charge voltage than old Lead- antimony batteries which will die quickly or possibly explode if used in their place.

 

If you shop around there is not much price difference between them. I paid

[RADIOTWO]

Had a dead battery about a week ago, found no record of replacement in the service history, and thought at 5 years old and winter approaching, I would treat the old gal to a new one.

I had read various threads on here about calcium batteries etc, but my local shop recommended a lead acid 'Numax' 88amp which was the same size as the old one, but had a lower rating.

I immediately noticed how the car started instantly, compared to previously when the engine cranked over almost a complete cycle before sparking into life.

Thought my troubles were over - until the car had been left standing for 2 days. There wasn't even enough juice to operate the remote locking.

I did a search on this forum and found a number of recommendations, including checking for a drain by rigging an ammeter in series with the battery lead, and pulling out fuses one by one.

Could I not simply pull out fuses one by one, and look for a voltage by bridging the fuse contacts with a voltmeter?

I am not an electrician, and am wary of damaging the ECU etc. Any help or other suggestions would be appreciated.

 

Hi Greenfingers

 

Last things first, no you cannot check for a "short" with a volt meter, you need to check with a ammeter.

 

But we need to know a bit more about what you did when you got your new battery fitted, ie the battery was fitted did you charge it? and if so for how long?, don't for get it would take quite a lot of miles of driving to charge a battery, letting it tick over for a few mins would not charge a battery.

 

also have you got a alarm on the car? and for that matter any other device that runs without the ignition, ie radio amp etc?.

 

then when you have gone round the car to check if any thing has been left on like a boot light, then you need to switch every thing off, and get your ammeter, and take off the -ve lead(black) off the battery and see what current is drawn, you should get a small reading from the alarm(if you have one) and a small reading from the clock,hard to say but about 150-300mA.

 

If you are getting any more than than the 300mA then thats when you need to start pulling fuses, so see what circuit is causing the fault.

 

and to the Battery CA or lead acid, reading between the lines, all you read seems to be from Ford, so I guess its just so you will buy THERE batterys and not any others, as far as I know a Alternator is no diffrent for a lead or Ca battery, so that should not make any diffrence.

 

Hope that is of some help

 

Radiotwo

[mumof4]

I thought that when you bought a new battery it should already be fully charged and that there should be no need to charge it? :lol:

[RADIOTWO]

I thought that when you bought a new battery it should already be fully charged and that there should be no need to charge it? :lol:

Not if its been on the shelf for twelve months !

 

And most battery manufacturers suggest a full charge before use, and that goes for Nicads etc

 

Radiotwo

[Andrew T]

If the alternator is no different for vehicles fitted with SCS, is it because the SCS circuitry/computer/control box/ whatever is outside the alternator? I presume this is the gubbins that the handbook warns can alternate the power between the heated front and rear screens if it thinks you are making excessive demands on the electrical system? never noticed it happening myself though.

 

I like Fords comment on Ca batteries being longer lasting though, it was a Ca battery on the Galaxy I had to replace at 3.5 years old, the shortest I've had a battery last in donkeys years.

[Guest greenfingers]

I would be surprised if the battery is the problem. The old one was a lead acid type, and the new one was fully charged when fitted. Like I said, it was noticeable how much more powerful the new one was when first fitted compared to the old one when it worked previously.

Thanks Radiotwo, I have checked that everything is off, but it does have a factory alarm and CD changer. Also, the previous owner fitted a DVD player, and I have never worked out how the DVD unit and screen are wired in.

I will try the ammeter test ASAP.

[seatkid]

Donkeys years are shorter than human years, 1 Donkey year = ~2.2 human years

 

To check current drain, switch off everything, disconnect one battery lead and insert a meter in series with the lead and measure the current drawn. It should be less than 100mA (0.1A). Typically 50mA (0.05A). Anything signifcantly more indicates a fault.

 

Make sure you know the radio code before you disconnect the battery.

 

Its not unknown to be sold a duff battery, a lot of places do not store them correctly.

[NikpV]

Donkeys years are shorter than human years, 1 Donkey year = ~2.2 human years

 

 

longer ??

[Andrew T]

Shouldn't an '01 Sharan have a Ca battery from new (suggesting the battery has been previously replaced) or is it just the Gal' that was fitted with them?

[RADIOTWO]

I would be surprised if the battery is the problem. The old one was a lead acid type, and the new one was fully charged when fitted. Like I said, it was noticeable how much more powerful the new one was when first fitted compared to the old one when it worked previously.

Thanks Radiotwo, I have checked that everything is off, but it does have a factory alarm and CD changer. Also, the previous owner fitted a DVD player, and I have never worked out how the DVD unit and screen are wired in.

I will try the ammeter test ASAP.

 

 

Hi Again,

 

One thing I did not mention ! Have you checked the Alternator ? should be putting out 14.5ish volts when

doing about 1500 rpm

 

Radiotwo

[Guest greenfingers]

I think the alternator output is OK. I put the battery on a trickle charge yesterday after discovering it was flat. Before refitting it this morning, I was getting a reading of 12.38 volts (don't think it was fully charged).

I had to use the car today, so I fitted the battery and it started OK. However, the voltmeter on the dashboard was reading around 12 volts to begin with, so I revved the engine a bit, and then after a couple of minutes it went up to around 14 volts (which is normal). Since then it reads 14 volts immediately after the engine starts. If I turn the aircon and rear demister on, the voltage drops to about 13 on tickover.

[RADIOTWO]

I think the alternator output is OK. I put the battery on a trickle charge yesterday after discovering it was flat. Before refitting it this morning, I was getting a reading of 12.38 volts (don't think it was fully charged).

I had to use the car today, so I fitted the battery and it started OK. However, the voltmeter on the dashboard was reading around 12 volts to begin with, so I revved the engine a bit, and then after a couple of minutes it went up to around 14 volts (which is normal). Since then it reads 14 volts immediately after the engine starts. If I turn the aircon and rear demister on, the voltage drops to about 13 on tickover.

Hi again

 

Yes the charging seems fine, if the volt meter goes to 14 volts is fine(on a diffrent tact) if it goes above 14.5 then shut off the engine, as it will boil the battery.

 

so its back to start at the begining, find out if there is a short.

 

Radiotwo

[Guest greenfingers]

I need a day off and some daylight to investigate further. Will report back.

 

I am so frustrated at the cost and effort of fixing and running this vehicle for just 2000 miles of ownership so far - cambelt kit, brake light switch (plus assorted bulbs), tyres (and fixing spare wheel winch), pollen filter ( and continuing steaming up saga), battery (and latest draining saga), heater/aircon smells, siezed wiper mechanism, spasmodic rear wiper......the list goes on. What really p----s me off is my deciding to spend over

[Guest gooner52]

I thought that when you bought a new battery it should already be fully charged and that there should be no need to charge it? <_<

Not if its been on the shelf for twelve months !

 

And most battery manufacturers suggest a full charge before use, and that goes for Nicads etc

 

Radiotwo

 

 

i bought a brand new heavy duty battery for mine

and they fitted it..it didnt even start the galaxy,they then found out the new one had been sitting for a while

and the cells where duff

 

lession here buying new dont mean it works :lol:

[jw0534]

I hac same problen it was a phone which was wired to remain live constantly pulled the fuse to check it and it was fine no more flat battery every two or three days

JW

[Guest greenfingers]

The battery supplier has now tested the battery, and reckons it is fine - putting out about 750 Amps. He then offered to check the starter motor with his gadget - fine, and he then did a test with the engine running, and couldn't find anything wrong.

 

The problem is still there though. If I measure the battery voltage at night and then the next day, it has dropped about .2 Volts. This is not temperature related, because if I measure it in the morning and then in the evening without starting the car, it still drops about .2 Volts. Therefore, even if I go on a long drive (130 miles the other day) and measure the battery voltage afterwards at a healthy 12.79 Volts, I know that it will drop to under 12 Volts in 3 days, which I believe is too low.

 

I have done exhaustive ammeter tests as described by Radiotwo and Seatkid, and am still no wiser. With an ammeter wired in series with the battery I knelt outside the drivers door (with the door open), and got a reading of approx 5 Amps. I then pulled out the interior lights fuse, and the reading dropped to about .6 Amps. Pulling out the radio fuse made no difference, and then I took out and replaced each fuse in the fusebox one by one. The only fuses which made a noticeable difference were the ones listed in the handbook as 'central electrics', which dropped the reading down to about .2 Amps.

With all fuses in place, I can shut the door, and after the inside lights go out, the reading bounces around .5 Amps and then gradually drops to .2 Amps (200 mA yes?).

I have not tried any servos or anything in the engine bay yet. Is this something that a vehicle electrician will easily find? I would love to take it to someone who will charge

[RADIOTWO]

The battery supplier has now tested the battery, and reckons it is fine - putting out about 750 Amps. He then offered to check the starter motor with his gadget - fine, and he then did a test with the engine running, and couldn't find anything wrong.

 

The problem is still there though. If I measure the battery voltage at night and then the next day, it has dropped about .2 Volts. This is not temperature related, because if I measure it in the morning and then in the evening without starting the car, it still drops about .2 Volts. Therefore, even if I go on a long drive (130 miles the other day) and measure the battery voltage afterwards at a healthy 12.79 Volts, I know that it will drop to under 12 Volts in 3 days, which I believe is too low.

 

I have done exhaustive ammeter tests as described by Radiotwo and Seatkid, and am still no wiser. With an ammeter wired in series with the battery I knelt outside the drivers door (with the door open), and got a reading of approx 5 Amps. I then pulled out the interior lights fuse, and the reading dropped to about .6 Amps. Pulling out the radio fuse made no difference, and then I took out and replaced each fuse in the fusebox one by one. The only fuses which made a noticeable difference were the ones listed in the handbook as 'central electrics', which dropped the reading down to about .2 Amps.

With all fuses in place, I can shut the door, and after the inside lights go out, the reading bounces around .5 Amps and then gradually drops to .2 Amps (200 mA yes?).

I have not tried any servos or anything in the engine bay yet. Is this something that a vehicle electrician will easily find? I would love to take it to someone who will charge

[Andrew T]

Greenfingers, you were asking about the voltages - I copied this off a post long ago.

 

at 12.6 volts the battery is 100 per cent charged

at 12.4 volts, the battery is 75 per cent charged

at 12.2 volts, the battery is 50 per cent charged

at 12.0 volts, the battery is 25 per cent charged

 

I've been having occasional battery problems for months, I've been back to Nat' tyres (who supplied the battery) twice and they are adamant it's a good battery. I watched him go through the tests while he explained what he was doing and he showed me the spec's and everything seemed in order. It's also been into an Auto Electrician (only

[Guest greenfingers]

Thanks Radiotwo. I specifically asked the battery man if he could drop test the battery. I have taken batteries there before, and they have got out the two huge prongs with the massive coil between, and I have watched them 'short' the battery - you can almost feel the surge. Apparently this is not now practised for health and safety reasons!

I am not sure exactly what he tested on the battery, but he used some kind of specialised multimeter. I guess this could tell the amount of charge stored in the battery as well as the amperage it could deliver. Anyway, he was convinced that the battery was fine.

[big_kev]

I thought a Lead Acid battery would be at 14.4 volts when fully charged..dropping very quickly to 13.2V.

 

It would remain at this if no load were applied.

 

12.6V would indicate either a load on the battery, a partially disharged battery.

 

Or a faulty alternator ie battery not being fully charged.

[Andrew T]

I've always assumed that these figures are with the ignition off, I think you should expect about +2v when charging, so 14.4v would be right.

 

From my own checks I know that a showing of 12.0V will (just) start the car but 11.8V will not.

[Guest greenfingers]

Andrew T, I would agree with your voltage estimates.

 

Actually, my new battery will show 12.79 Volts just after charging, whether connected to the car or not. These readings are temperature related too, so that my fully charged battery will show about 12.65 when cold.

 

Also, if it drops much below 12, it does'nt put out enough Amps to crank the starter.

Regardless of the charge in the battery when the car is running, the car voltmeter shows that alternator is charging the battery at up to 14 Volts.

 

Surely if you can see that the car is drawing a current from the battery when everything is turned off, this suggests that either something is still turned on or there is a short circuit somewhere in the car - and not the battery?

[tiny]

At 5 years old the car should have a Ca battery NOT an Sb type, the technical information states that an Sb battery can be replaced with a Ca type but not vice versa. This is hardly ford trying to sell you their own batteries as they say the Sb type can be replaced by either type.

 

If certain battery chargers are not suitable for use on Ca batteries then it is possible that the alternators are different and equally possible that the alternator on your car is either not charging sufficiently or even damaging the Sb battery fitted.

 

Surely if you want to eliminate the problem you should start with the basics and fit the correct type of battery first.

 

Your retailer may have recommended the battery he sold you, but that recommendation was probably based upon what he had in stock and the desire to make a sale rather than the manufacturers specification for that vehicle.

 

The TIS document that I posted earlier states clearly that a Ca battery MUST be replaced with a Ca battery so why choose to ignore this information?

 

It may not cure your problem, but it is the most simple part of the equation to eliminate.