Things Most Likely To Go Wrong

[big_kev]

 

But, to return to the original question......

 

 

Aah the sweet sound of admitting defeat is music to my ears ! :16:

 

I suspect the sweet sound is just some echoes in the empty caverns :16: :30: :30: :16:

 

:blink: Probably true :blink:

[tim-spam]

Just noticed your edited signature - 1998 R reg 1.9TDi Ghia 110bhp - nice engine.

[Guest Cepheus]

at between 1900rpm and 2500rpm, the TDI 115 has between 53% and 60% more pulling 'power' than a 2.3 petrol.

 

so for 600 rpm out of 4000 rpm the 115 has 55% more power than the 2.3?

 

or

 

for 3400 rpm out of 4000 rpm the 115 has lower power than the 2.3

 

or

 

85% of the time the 115 has lower power than the 2.3. Hardly any proof of a better performing engine!

 

Facts and figures can be made to read whatever someone wants them to mean and are therefore meaningless in 95.73% of cases. :)

 

Some people prefer petrol, others prefer diesel. End of. :lol:

[NikpV]

too much petrol gives me heartburn :D

[El Dingo]

Commenting on driving style is so patronising it's embarrassing! :D

[big_kev]

Just noticed your signature - 1998 R reg 1.9TDi Ghia 115bhp. This model does not actually exist - in 1998, the TDI was either 90bhp or 110bhp, both of which have a far lower torque output and performance than the later (2000 and on) 115bhp TDI's. The TDI 110 manages 240Nm at 1900rpm, against 310Nm for the TDI 115.

 

310nm for the TDI 115

 

I dont think so!

 

This is the figure for the 150Bhp

 

 

 

The torque on the galaxy diesels is directly related to the Bhp ( with the exception of the 90Bhp which is slightly different ).

 

No my signature syas 110bhp !

[El Dingo]

BTW, I can't be bothered to look the figures up, however, I wouldn't bother with combined fuel consumption figures. In my experience the Urban figures represent what most people on average will get out of their cars.

 

vote 4 lower tax on diesel owners

and high tax on 2.3 owners

 

 

:D :D :D :D ;)

 

I'll agree with that and so apparentlly does El Doggo Dingo :D :D :lol: :lol:

 

..... But it's Gooner who really got it right. :lol:

 

He he he... Woofy to you teach! :lol:

[Guest gooner52]

BTW, I can't be bothered to look the figures up, however, I wouldn't bother with combined fuel consumption figures. In my experience the Urban figures represent what most people on average will get out of their cars.

 

vote 4 lower tax on diesel owners

and high tax on 2.3 owners

 

 

:D :D :D :D ;)

 

I'll agree with that and so apparentlly does El Doggo Dingo :D :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

..... But it's Gooner who really got it right. :lol:

 

He he he... Woofy to you teach! ;)

 

 

:D ^_^

 

at between 1900rpm and 2500rpm, the TDI 115 has between 53% and 60% more pulling 'power' than a 2.3 petrol.

 

so for 600 rpm out of 4000 rpm the 115 has 55% more power than the 2.3?

 

or

 

for 3400 rpm out of 4000 rpm the 115 has lower power than the 2.3

 

or

 

85% of the time the 115 has lower power than the 2.3. Hardly any proof of a better performing engine!

 

Facts and figures can be made to read whatever someone wants them to mean and are therefore meaningless in 95.73% of cases. ;)

 

Some people prefer petrol, others prefer diesel. End of. :D

 

 

well said.who is cares :D ;)

[big_kev]

BTW, I can't be bothered to look the figures up, however, I wouldn't bother with combined fuel consumption figures. In my experience the Urban figures represent what most people on average will get out of their cars.

 

vote 4 lower tax on diesel owners

and high tax on 2.3 owners

 

 

:D :D :D :D ;)

 

I'll agree with that and so apparentlly does El Doggo Dingo :D :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

..... But it's Gooner who really got it right. :lol:

 

He he he... Woofy to you teach! ;)

 

 

:D ^_^

 

at between 1900rpm and 2500rpm, the TDI 115 has between 53% and 60% more pulling 'power' than a 2.3 petrol.

 

so for 600 rpm out of 4000 rpm the 115 has 55% more power than the 2.3?

 

or

 

for 3400 rpm out of 4000 rpm the 115 has lower power than the 2.3

 

or

 

85% of the time the 115 has lower power than the 2.3. Hardly any proof of a better performing engine!

 

Facts and figures can be made to read whatever someone wants them to mean and are therefore meaningless in 95.73% of cases. ;)

 

Some people prefer petrol, others prefer diesel. End of. :D

 

 

well said.who is cares :D ;)

 

Obviously me

SWMBO

The guy who puts the prices on the fuel pumps

El Presidento Blair

and all the other less significant people out there

[tim-spam]

310nm for the TDI 115

 

I dont think so!

 

This is the figure for the 150Bhp

 

The torque on the galaxy diesels is directly related to the Bhp ( with the exception of the 90Bhp which is slightly different ).

310Nm for TDI 115 and TDI 130, 320Nm for TDI 150 - all at 1900rpm - these are the facts. The maximum engine powers occur at around 4000 rpm.

 

at between 1900rpm and 2500rpm, the TDI 115 has between 53% and 60% more pulling 'power' than a 2.3 petrol.

 

so for 600 rpm out of 4000 rpm the 115 has 55% more power than the 2.3?

 

or

 

for 3400 rpm out of 4000 rpm the 115 has lower power than the 2.3

 

or

 

85% of the time the 115 has lower power than the 2.3. Hardly any proof of a better performing engine!

 

Facts and figures can be made to read whatever someone wants them to mean and are therefore meaningless in 95.73% of cases.

 

Logic obviously not a strong point here! Just to help, the fact that the TDI 115 has between 53% and 60% more pulling 'power' between 1900rpm and 2500rpm obviously does not mean that it suddenly has less than a 2.3 below and above this range.

 

Some people prefer petrol, others prefer diesel. End of.

However, I know that some people just prefer petrol engines, and that's fine

But, if you bought your car because you like it, then that's great - enjoy it.

[big_kev]

310Nm for TDI 115 and TDI 130, 320Nm for TDI 150 - all at 1900rpm - these are the facts. The maximum engine powers occur at around 4000 rpm.

 

Utter rubbish !

 

Check your facts they are clearly wrong.

 

Useful info for misinformed people.

 

power = (engine speed * engine torque) / 5252

this equation relates to the laws of physics ( go argue with Newton or Einstein or Plank on this one )

 

Translating this becomes

 

BHP = (rpm*lb/ft ) 5252

 

Therefore assuming same revs all the diesel engines

 

Torque is a function of BHP, the rpm and constant 5252 are the same for all engines.

 

Therefore if 150 BHP engine has a torque of 310Nm

 

the 110BHP = 227Nm

 

the 115BHP = 238NM

 

the 130BHP = 269 NM

 

I await a more sensible reply :D

[NikpV]

two small points - whilst not getting in the way of your 'discussion'

 

1) torque using the conversion 5252 needs to be in foot lb not in Newton Metre (a conversion of 1.355 IIRC)

5252 - only covers the 550 foot pound per sec to rpm side of things

 

2) max power and max torque for an engine are often not at the same rpm the point being that at 1900 they may have their max torque but not necessarily their max power so I can't see how you can equate max power to max torque ay a specified engine speed and in this case I don't know if they have their max power at the same rpm

 

 

so for the 115 the torque at 4000 is 111nm (max power)

and the power at 1900 is only 63 bhp (max torque)

 

:D :D

[AndeeeH]

310Nm for TDI 115 and TDI 130, 320Nm for TDI 150 - all at 1900rpm - these are the facts. The maximum engine powers occur at around 4000 rpm.

 

Utter rubbish !

 

Check your facts they are clearly wrong.

 

Useful info for misinformed people.

 

power = (engine speed * engine torque) / 5252

this equation relates to the laws of physics ( go argue with Newton or Einstein or Plank on this one )

 

Translating this becomes

 

BHP = (rpm*lb/ft ) 5252

 

Therefore assuming same revs all the diesel engines

 

Torque is a function of BHP, the rpm and constant 5252 are the same for all engines.

 

Therefore if 150 BHP engine has a torque of 310Nm

 

the 110BHP = 227Nm

 

the 115BHP = 238NM

 

the 130BHP = 269 NM

 

I await a more sensible reply :lol:

 

According to the figures quoted by Fords for the 115 and 130 Tdi's in the Galaxy brochures dated 06/2003 and 03/2004 the figures quoted by tim-spam are correct: 310 Nm@1900 rpm. The 90 is quoted as 240 Nm @ 1900 rpm. :lol: Andy.

[big_kev]

two small points - whilst not getting in the way of your 'discussion'

 

1) torque using the conversion 5252 needs to be in foot lb not in Newton Metre (a conversion of 1.355 IIRC)

5252 - only covers the 550 foot pound per sec to rpm side of things

 

2) max power and max torque for an engine are often not at the same rpm the point being that at 1900 they may have their max torque but not necessarily their max power so I can't see how you can equate max power to max torque ay a specified engine speed and in this case I don't know if they have their max power at the same rpm

 

 

so for the 115 the torque at 4000 is 111nm (max power)

and the power at 1900 is only 63 bhp (max torque)

 

:lol: :lol:

ok

 

1) which part of the expression BHP = (rpm*lb/ft ) 5252 says Newton Metre's ?

Please note the words lb/ft .......bit of a clue there.

Please feel free to change the result to lb/ft if you prefer.

Will the ratio be any different .... I know it wont..you know it wont...so why talk rubbish

 

2) "in this case I don't know if they have their max power at the same rpm"

I do and they do.

 

next please :lol:

 

 

 

 

 

According to the figures quoted by Fords for the 115 and 130 Tdi's in the Galaxy brochures dated 06/2003 and 03/2004 the figures quoted by tim-spam are correct: 310 Nm@1900 rpm. The 90 is quoted as 240 Nm @ 1900 rpm. :lol: Andy.

 

 

And we all believe Ford's brochures..................

 

Out of curiosity does anyone know what VW say ?

[NikpV]

power = (engine speed * engine torque) / 5252

this equation relates to the laws of physics ( go argue with Newton or Einstein or Plank on this one )

 

don't want to argue it - its basic physics - but like all other basic physics has to be applied in the correct way :P

 

1) which part of the expression BHP = (rpm*lb/ft ) 5252 says Newton Metre's ?

Please note the words lb/ft .......bit of a clue there.

Please feel free to change the result to lb/ft if you prefer.

Will the ratio be any different .... I know it wont..you know it wont...so why talk rubbish

 

ah Why did you use ratios since all the data is available - can only think it didn't support your argument since ratios has to assume that ford (tim_spam) is correct for at least the first figure

 

 

so why talk rubbish

 

 

doesn't appear to stop you :lol: :lol:

2) "in this case I don't know if they have their max power at the same rpm"

I do and they do.

 

they dont (as in fact the majority of engines don't - but don't let me disturb YOUR reality) and you don't :D

(an extremely simple Google search will reveal all I could give you some links but you will only say they are special cases - they are all car engines :lol:)

next please :lol:

 

 

Fish Barrel - : like my year 9 Physics students :D :D

 

Out of curiosity does anyone know what VW say ?

 

 

something in German ??????? but according to elsawin the same as ford only in Kw not BHP :lol: :lol:

 

 

And we all believe Ford's brochures..................

 

depending who or what we are comparing it to - I know its more likely to be correct than you here :lol:

 

 

ps: just wondering If I being teased by a semi-magically creature under a bridge here

[tim-spam]

NikpV - you're quite right.

 

As for lb/ft (pounds per foot), what on earth are they? The imperial measure for torque is lbf ft, or ft lbf - ie: a product, not a ratio - 1 pound force applied at a radius of 1 foot.

 

Right, time for the facts, together with a correct explanation.

 

Considering the TDI 115, 130 and 150, they all produce their maximum torque at 1900rpm, 310Nm for the 115 and 130, and 320Nm for the 150. Whilst some may find this difficult to understand, these are the facts.

 

Now, Power (Watts) = Torque (Nm) x Engine Speed (radians per second).

 

1900rpm = 199 rads/sec

 

Therefore, the power output at maximum torque for the 115 and 130 = (199 x 310)W = 61.7kW (or 83bhp)

 

For the 150, this figure is a little higher at 63.7kW (or 85bhp). These are the power outputs at 1900rpm.

 

Increasing engine speed above 1900rpm, results in a reduction of torque output, but this reduction is proportionately less than the increase in engine speed, such that the power output continues to increase until 4000rpm is reached, above which the torque falls away more rapidly. So, maximum power occurs at 4000rpm, which is 419 rads/sec.

 

Therefore the power and torque figures for the TDI engines at 4000 rpm are:

 

TDI 115 Power = 85kW (115bhp), Torque = 85000/419 = 203Nm

TDI 130 Power = 96kW (130bhp), Torque = 229Nm

TDI 150 Power = 110kW (150bhp), Torque = 263Nm

 

So, you can see that, whilst the maximum torque outputs are very similar for the three engines, the torque output above 1900rpm falls away more slowly on the more powerful versions such that their maximum power outputs reached at 4000rpm are higher. By the way, if the TDI 150 produced its maximum torque at 4000 rpm, it would kick out around 134kW (180bhp) - nice...

 

Incidently, acceleration is proportional to torque, and the above figures show pretty clearly why the in gear acceleration is so good with the TDI engines.

 

So far, this thread has produced some pretty amusing posts, but the later ones from Big Kev are real corkers....

[big_kev]

Ok now we are getting somewhere.

 

Nikpv like the ps. you could be right.......anyhow

 

Lets look at what we have so far

 

lb/ft versus lb ft debatable but a valid point..however we are in the world of auto mechanics which is different from the real world where capacitors are capacitors not condensors and inductors are inductors not coils...yeh ok autoelectrics same cowboys.

 

In this weird world the term ft/lb is correct although I concede is confusing as it looks like ft divided by lb.

 

Anyhow to get back to the point

 

Some dangerous assumptions have been made

 

I queried the torque given for the various diesels in particular the figure of 310Nm for all these engines at 1900 rpm.

 

I will have to restate the formula in case people are incapable of readin the previous postings

 

BHP = (rpm*lb*ft ).............note the inclusion of the * to keep some people happy

 

This is not under dispute I think everyone agrees with that

What is under dispute is the BHP and hence Torque at 1900rpm for the various diesels.

 

Nikpv in his last statement uses this formula at 4000rpm to correctly give the torque for the engines

 

However in his first statement he still uses the assumption that all 3 engines have the a torque of 310Nm and then goes on to calculate their respective powers.

Extremely bad way to go about this he used as a reference point the very figure that was being disputed !

 

We need to use a figure other than 310Nm eg the BHP or some other given reference and then from this calculate the torque from this.

 

Does anyone have any figures for these engines other than the disputed 310Nm one ?

 

and a p.s .....why did I use ratios when the figures were available...it is the figures i was disputing...the fact that I used the figure for the 150BHp is irrelevant as it was only used to show that the other engines have a different torque which was my point.

 

p.p.s or p/p/s depending on your point of view

 

I hope some one other than me i still reading this...Nikpv "so why tal rubbish"

 

Answer "obviously its what I do best "

 

Luv Kev xxx

[Andrew T]

I have brochures for the Galaxy, Sharan and Alhambra and all quote 310 NM for 115 and 130 engines. I 'm sure that when the 150BHP Diesel was on Fords website it was 310NM as well.

[big_kev]

I have brochures for the Galaxy, Sharan and Alhambra and all quote 310 NM for 115 and 130 engines. I 'm sure that when the 150BHP Diesel was on Fords website it was 310NM as well.

 

read the thread

[Guest Cepheus]

Petrol engines are still better, diesels cause too many arguments ;) :lol: ;)

[raymac]

Petrol engines are still better, diesels cause too many arguments ;) :D ;)

 

Right i,m off to get me dad :lol: :D ;)

[Guest gooner52]

:lol: as said before who does really care

 

i love both ;)

[tim-spam]

Yet another couple of corkers from big kev...

 

I think there is only one person here disputing the figures, but at the risk of repeating what's already been said, the properly measured figures from the manufacturer (and they have to be properly measured and reported to obtain European Type Approval) are as follows:

 

TDI 115 - 85kW at 4000rpm, 310Nm at 1900rpm

TDI 130 - 96kW at 4000rpm, 310Nm at 1900rpm

TDI 150 - 110kW at 4000rpm, 320Nm at 1900rpm

 

There should be no argument about it - these are the facts. In my last post, I explained fully and comprehensively how the above facts are completely consistent with the physical principles involved, so any further dispute about them is totally pointless.

[NikpV]

Yet another couple of corkers from big kev...

 

I think there is only one person here disputing the figures, but at the risk of repeating what's already been said, the properly measured figures from the manufacturer (and they have to be properly measured and reported to obtain European Type Approval) are as follows:

 

TDI 115 - 85kW at 4000rpm, 310Nm at 1900rpm

TDI 130 - 96kW at 4000rpm, 310Nm at 1900rpm

TDI 150 - 110kW at 4000rpm, 320Nm at 1900rpm

 

There should be no argument about it - these are the facts. In my last post, I explained fully and comprehensively how the above facts are completely consistent with the physical principles involved, so any further dispute about them is totally pointless.

 

 

I'm a bit puzzled - Who is disputing the published figures ?? on what basis - seems unlikely that anyone could drive a couple of cars and then say 'car A' has 10Nm more torque than 'carB' without taking some measurements?

[tim-spam]

310Nm for TDI 115 and TDI 130, 320Nm for TDI 150 - all at 1900rpm - these are the facts. The maximum engine powers occur at around 4000 rpm.

 

Utter rubbish !

 

Check your facts they are clearly wrong.

 

Therefore if 150 BHP engine has a torque of 310Nm

 

the 110BHP = 227Nm

 

the 115BHP = 238NM

 

the 130BHP = 269 NM

 

I await a more sensible reply ;)

Some dangerous assumptions have been made

 

I queried the torque given for the various diesels in particular the figure of 310Nm for all these engines at 1900 rpm.

 

What is under dispute is the BHP and hence Torque at 1900rpm for the various diesels.

 

Does anyone have any figures for these engines other than the disputed 310Nm one ?

 

and a p.s .....why did I use ratios when the figures were available...it is the figures i was disputing...the fact that I used the figure for the 150BHp is irrelevant as it was only used to show that the other engines have a different torque which was my point.

 

 

I think that answers your question.