Thanks Gregers, it was sitting so low at the front and was obviously not right - much better now. I was hoping that there was enough give in the lining to ease it down enough to see what is happening at least with the pipes on the front two drains if I removed the sun visors, clock panel, passenger roof handle and front door rubber seals. Mk2 man, thanks for straying into this mk3 area with your technical input too, I will go into the finer measurement details when I have more time now I have a bit more idea what I am doing. Oh Yes!! Sorry, us 'dumb asses' only know how to do a search for the type of problem we have and then reply to the thread that best matches :-)