Dead Galaxy - Electrical Problem

[Ivor_E_Tower]

Not been here for a while; spent a small fortune in keeping the Old Gal on the road with cambelt and water pump, 4 new tyres at the start of Dec etc etc and now this...

Drove to local train station on Monday, no probs. Came back to car a few hours later, started and put heated front screen on to clear the frost. Fan would only got to half-way up the set of speeds. Then front screen started cycling on and off every second or so. Switched engine off thinking it was an electrical gremlin. Went to re-start, battery almost dead. Waited a few minutes, just enough power to get started but front screen heater would not work. Drove home, dash warning lights started to come on eg airbag, ABS. Called out RAC who diagnosed alternator fault. They followed me to local garage. Left car there. Yesterday (Tuesday) got a call saying the battery was dead, alternator OK and charging at 14.5 volts. Collected car in afternoon, drove for 5 or 6 miles to ensure battery was charged OK then put car in my garage for the night. This morning went out to get some food .. OK no problems. Get into car to drive home, and "alternator workshop" message appears on display, battery no-charge light is on. Got home; I had 14.07 volts across the battery terminals and 14.6 when I switched off. Left the car for 2 hours, same issue if I start it (but there is enough charge in the new battery to start it OK). The heated front screen will not come on even with the engine running. So what do I do? What is the fault likely to be? I have disconnected the battery for now (approx 12.8 volts across the terminals) and connected up a battery charger.

 

EDIT: Note 14.07 and 14.6 should read 12.07 and 12.6; typo (I'm annoyed as you may have guessed!)

Edited December 31, 2008 by Ivor_E_Tower

[Mirez]

You got 14.6v when you turned the engine OFF?!?

 

If so then you could have a capacitance issue, which might be the result of poor or coroded earth point(s). I would inspect the main earth points in the engine bay for corrosion as a first step.

[Ivor_E_Tower]

Oooops... should be 12.07 and 12.4 volts

[seatkid]

12.6 volts is not the correct charging voltage - should be at least 13.5 volts. Sounds like a dead alternator (most likely the brush pack is worn out - these can be replaced on a lot of alternators)

 

Should be easy enough to find the fault. Easier with an "assistant"

 

1. With engine and everything off, if battery stays above 12 volts its unlikely to be a faulty cell in the battery (12.6 - 12.8volts for a rested fully charged battery)

 

2. all ancillaries off, and start engine

 

2. Measure battery terminal voltage at idle - should be above 13 volts - certainly if engine revved a bit it should rise to about 13.5 volts, if not Alternator dead

 

3. If its OK, then turn on headlights and REAR heated windscreen.

 

4. Check battery terminal voltage still above 13 volts, if less than 12.5 volts - check the main fuse box for signs of melting, otherwise almost certain alternator fault.

 

5. With engine still running, check voltage at an auxillary power point (cig lighter) - should be 13+ volts - if not then a wiring/fuse box issue.

 

6. Now turn on FRONT heated screen while watching battery voltage, if it dives (engine revved) then FRONT screen may have a short circuit.

[Ivor_E_Tower]

I suspect the alternator, as originally diagnosed by the RAC.... the voltage across the battery is under 12.5 even with the engine running. The front screen will not switch on - it's inhibited from so doing by the electronics since there is insufficient voltage. I've disconnected the battery and had it on charge for a few hours - charger is still putting out over 4 amps. I stopped charging (It's at 13.2V under no load), reconnected it, and still the same issues when the engine is started... so I've disconnected it again and put it back on charge. Now, I wonder what the chances are on Friday of getting a replacement alternator, and how much it's going to cost... the bill is already just under Edited December 31, 2008 by Ivor_E_Tower

[seatkid]

Its usually the voltage regulator, brushes worn out - they can be replaced.

 

Exploded view of an alternator

 

 

Look here

[Ivor_E_Tower]

The problem is.. will the garage want to fault find and get just the defective parts, or is it easier and quicker to just change the alternator? Plus I need the car for work on Monday as I'm not on any convenient public transport routes (I suppose I could cycle the 6 miles uphill in the dark.....)

As to the price... ouch! Last time I changed an alternator it was just under

[Scorpiorefugee]

It sounds like the usual 'Which bit to change first.' problem. The difficulty being that it is not possible to prove anything without changing it.

 

I note that you do not measure the battery voltage while on charge. The problem is further confounded because, if the alternator is faulty and the battery is past it's first flush of youth, the battery may well be knackered anyway as a result of being fully discharged. That is what usually sees them off. If you can protect them against that they can go on for years.

 

Can I suggest that you disconnect the battery and put it on a longish charge. 4A for 24 hours should see the charge rate drop right back and it sitting with 14 and a bit volts and be capable of holding that for some time after the charger is disconnected. It should also hold it for a short while with a moderate load (indicator bulb or similar).

 

If that doesn't happen, it is probably worth changing the battery first 'cos it is probably knackered anyway.

[bofus]

Guys

 

Mr Tower... before you dive into the clutches of the garage....

 

Check the battery junction box (Black plastic box under the battery cover between the battery and the headlight), especially the thick cable from the alternator (closest to the battery) and the main fusebox feed (next one towards the front of the car)

 

I'd hazard a guess that the alternator terminal/ crimp is burnt/damaged. The only solution is a new cable from the alternator to battery junction box and a new junction box (total is about GBP 40 from a dealer)

 

Worse case is the cable to the main junction box, you have to cur the damaged cable off and butt splice a new 16mm2 section in. Not difficult if you have the correct (but uncommon) tools.

 

Gav

[Ivor_E_Tower]

Thanks guys but...

I already checked the JB, it's fine, no signs of any problems or melting. The cables also look OK. The battery is new, having been changed on Tuesday as part of the garage's first investigation (albeit they have fitted a poxy 64Ah version, about which I am not happy); they said they did a full check and the alternator was charging at 14.5 volts. In which case, how come the RAC on Monday, and me today, are only seeing 12-and-a-bit when the engine is running unless the fault is intermittent (on the alternator - regulator or diode pack maybe), or the new battery is faulty.

Just been out to check..... the battery is still disconnected, charging at 2 Amps now, and it's measuring just under 14 volts across the terminals whilst on charge. I intend to leave it on charge all night, check it tomorrow then disconnect it, measure voltage, leave it a few hours then re-check its voltage to see if it is losing voltage on its own when not connected to anything.

 

Edit - and don't forget that I got the "alternator workshop" error message on the dashboard display when all this started.......

and again today when the problem recurred

Edited December 31, 2008 by Ivor_E_Tower

[turk90210]

From the sounds of it i think the alternator or fuse box will be the likley culprit but further investigation by yourself can be done, dont rely on how things look as i have had what look like tight connections on wires but when checked with a multimeter found they were infact poor connections, reading the posts it sounds like you have access to a multi-meter or some form of volt measuring device if so then this check will work on "most" charging circuits. If you use this check on other cars identify how the ind circuit works first, if it is controlled via a relay or ECU it will not work when checking the ind circuit but the second part testing the main charge lead should. On the mk1-2 galaxy, sharan or alhambra this test should be fine

 

Firstly check the batt warning light circuit (IND Wire) basically disconnect the small wiring plug to the alternator, identify the ind wire and with the ignition turned on (engine NOT running) use the MM (multimeter) to see if you have battery voltage (some cars might only have 1 small wire going to the alternator depending on trim level) if you have voltage earth the wire to the body of the alternator and see if the battery warning light comes on,if it does that circuit is ok if not check the wiring or dash bulb

next, to check the output of the alternator you need to eliminate the earths first, this is quite simple with the MM

with the meter on dc volts place one probe onto the battery earth then with the other place it to the body of the alternator (make sure the engine is running and if poss put a load on to make the alternator work, ie turn head lights on). If the earth is good you should see a value of no more than 0.5volts. if you have a higher voltage you have a poor connection and it is just a case of following your earths back and keep checking with the meter when you suddenly come to a point where you jump from a high to low reading that is your bad connection and needs cleaning, once rectified re check to confirm

next you can apply the same principle to the positive side, place one lead to the positive post on the battery and check the big lead on the alternator and work your way back along that lead, the same voltage rules apply big volts poor connection, low(0.5) good connections. If all that proves ok do a final check the normal way round with the MM, black lead to neg(on battery or engine),red to positive and confirm voltage output at the battery, back of alternator and at the starter where the 2 leads meet or fuse box on mk2 gal, if it is still poor then it looks like a faulty alternator, but as someone mentioned earlier the regulator could be the fault and if it is an external one on a Bosch alternator then chances are you can just replace this as they are usually available

Please remember that any poor connections on any consumer unit can be checked this way BUT remember that the consumer unit HAS to be working/switched on or attempting to work

 

Re checking the voltage on your battery when you leave it for a while you will probably find it will drop to around 12.2-12.5ish volts which is fine on a good battery this is the reading you should see on a fully charged battery any lower then the battery is on its way out, also a quick test ( but not fully conclusive) is when reconnected to the car check the voltage across the battery when it is cranking (the engine needs to be disabled to check properly) it should ideally not drop below 9-volts on a diesel engine and 10-volts on a petrol engine when cranked for 10 seconds

 

sorry but got to go now as its party time

" HAPPY NEW YEAR" to you all

see you in 2009

[seatkid]

they said they did a full check and the alternator was charging at 14.5 volts. In which case, how come the RAC on Monday, and me today, are only seeing 12-and-a-bit when the engine is running unless the fault is intermittent (on the alternator - regulator or diode pack maybe), or the new battery is faulty.

 

Edit - and don't forget that I got the "alternator workshop" error message on the dashboard display when all this started.......

and again today when the problem recurred

 

The brushes in the alternator are probably making intermittent contact because they are near the limit of travel or possibly just stuck in the carrier(s).

[Ivor_E_Tower]

Well, this morning everything is fine again..... fully charged battery, 14.4 volts when the engine is running and 12.7-ish when both heated screens are on. So do I risk taking it to the garage on Friday or do I try to seek out an auto electrician who can rebuild the alternator with new brushes and a new voltage reg just to be sure???

Happy New Year all !

[gregers]

are the brushes something that you yourself could not replace?all you need is a donner set of brushes and a soldering iron and solder,im sure you can rob some from your drill.

[seatkid]

So do I risk....

How deep is your pocket? Phone around and get some quotes.

 

OPTION 1: At a garage, it'll be cost of alternator + labour which could be

Edited January 1, 2009 by seatkid

[seatkid]

Digging around can lower prices significantly

 

for instance, this might be of interest

 

Try your local delphi motor factor also, I've always found them very competitive. My local VW dealer is also surprisingly good for parts.

[Ivor_E_Tower]

Thanks Seatkid; I've half-done option 3... it's so dark and cold outside that I have not removed the alternator or end cover as it's not easy to see how, or retain feeling in my fingers whilst working outside. However I have given it a good blow (quite a bit of black dust came out) and squirted it with "protecting lubricant" (not WD40) whilst it was running. Been out for a drive, parked up for about 30 minutes whilst I went into town centre and bought some more contact lens solution, came back to car which has re-started OK, and driven home.

I hope this buys me some time to get regulator and new brushes sorted out although I think I will use an auto electrician rather than attempt it myself due to the cold and dark (plus hopefully they will give some sort of guarantee with their work). Motor factors etc are closed today... hopefully some places will be open tomorrow; initial investigations do show that a complete new alternator will be around

[Ivor_E_Tower]

My problem went away and the auto electrician advised not touching anything.

Except... that 4 months later it has returned. Tuesday morning when I started the car to go to work, the "no charge" light stayed on, and the "alternator workshop" message came up. It now does this on every journey so I can only go short distances in the daytime when it's not raining, and when I get home, the battery charger has to be connected up straight away.

It's booked into the auto electricians on Monday 18th as I can't spare the car or get there until then (due to business trips away, with transport provided, thank goodness), so I have a few more days of driving with my fingers crossed to go....

This time round, of course, the weather has been warm and dry, so it's not damp that's got into the electrics that is the cause, and as it now happens all the time after 4 months of perfect car behaviour, it's unlikely to be an intermittent connection.

I wonder what it is, and how much it's going to cost; the Gal is rapidly becoming the worst vehicle that I have owned

[seatkid]

For gods sake , go out and treat it to a new set of brushes or if its too bright and sunny for you to do that B) then buy it a recon alternator.

 

If money doesnt stretch that far, you can build an alternator using some wire and some lengths of 1"x 1" wood - you may have some laying about in the form of an unused boot cover....... :lol:

 

You could also try another blow of WD40 (aided with a lump hammer) to see if you persuade that last 0.1mm of brush to move down the holder... :lol:

Edited May 6, 2009 by seatkid

[sepulchrave]

/signed :lol:

[Ivor_E_Tower]

Looks like it's the high-current fuse box by the screen wash refill.... got hoem from work today and did a few quick electrical checks before switching off..... 11.8V across battery, 11.8 battery positive to alternator body, 0.00 battery negative to alternator body. Opened the fuse box cover and 13.4 from live feeds to battery negative. Waggled wires around, checked dashboard...... no charge light has gone out! Re-check voltage across battery which is now over 13V, so it is charging.

There appears to be some swelling and white discolouration at the rearmost terminal in the fusebox as viewed from the front, so looks like I have a visit to the Ford Parts Counter to make tomorrow or Saturday

[seatkid]

... got hoem from work today

Inspector Clouseau solves another case! :lol:

[Ivor_E_Tower]

LOL !!!

Just done a search, actually, and there are several threads on the main feed fuse box and alternator-to-fuse wiring, so I have the 2 part numbers. Just got to phone around tomorrow for price and availability

[Martin F]

LOL !!!

Just done a search, actually, and there are several threads on the main feed fuse box and alternator-to-fuse wiring, so I have the 2 part numbers. Just got to phone around tomorrow for price and availability

 

Hi I have had exactly the same problem - just checked and my fusebox has melted - can you advise of the part no please?

 

My Gal is a 2001 2.8

 

thanks for all the useful info :angry:

Martin

[seatkid]

Hi I have had exactly the same problem - just checked and my fusebox has melted - can you advise of the part no please?

 

My Gal is a 2001 2.8

 

Try Yellow Pages, look under Car dealer Ford/VW/Seat and ask for the parts dept. ^_^

 

Why? Could be different part for different year/engine etc.